Epic Metamagic

[Xaven]

Ok, I have a question for you all here. I have not had much experience with the Epic Level Handbook (ok, none, other than reading through it once), but my friend brought to my attention that it is possible to cast a fireball spell for 1920 damage. I know there are probably stronger combinations, but this is a core question: what metagic feats stack?

I will go through his math with you, and point out where I am wondering if he has it wrong. The character is at 40th level.

First off, you take your fireball spell, level 3. Then, enhance it three times, so that adds 12 levels to the spell, and makes it do 40d6. Then, you energy admixture it, adding 4 levels, and making it do 80d6 damage. The spell is now level 19.

Next, you intensify the spell, which maximizes the effects, then double them. This adds 7 levels and makes this spell level 26.

Now, in the description for intensify spell, it says that you can't combine this feat with any other feat that affects the variable, numeric effects of a spell. Does that mean that it wouldn't stack with Enhanced Spell, which adds 10 dice every time you use the feat?

Assuming it doesn't, let't continue. You then twin this behemoth spell, adding 4 more levels, making it level 30, and making it so the spell does 1920 damage.

Knowing that it is practically impossible to cast a level 30 spell, you then take Improved Metamagic 3 times, which lowers every metamagic feat by 1 level. This is another question I have. Does that mean every metamagic feat you use is lowered 1 level, so if you used the same feat three times, it subtracts 3 levels, or does it mean it subtracts 1 level for every different metamagic feat?

If it means every feat you use, then, seeing as this spell has 6 feats on it, and you took improved metamagic 3 times, it would lower this spell to a level 12 spell. In order to get level 12 spells, you take Improved Spell Capacity 3 times.

I need the answers to these questions, the one about Intensify spell and how it relates to Enhanced Spell, and a clarification on the Improved Metamagic Feat. Thanks a lot.

 

[Anubis]

Ok, I have a question for you all here. I have not had much experience with the Epic Level Handbook (ok, none, other than reading through it once), but my friend brought to my attention that it is possible to cast a fireball spell for 1920 damage. I know there are probably stronger combinations, but this is a core question: what metagic feats stack?

I will go through his math with you, and point out where I am wondering if he has it wrong. The character is at 40th level.

First off, you take your fireball spell, level 3. Then, enhance it three times, so that adds 12 levels to the spell, and makes it do 40d6. Then, you energy admixture it, adding 4 levels, and making it do 80d6 damage. The spell is now level 19.

Next, you intensify the spell, which maximizes the effects, then double them. This adds 7 levels and makes this spell level 26.

Now, in the description for intensify spell, it says that you can't combine this feat with any other feat that affects the variable, numeric effects of a spell. Does that mean that it wouldn't stack with Enhanced Spell, which adds 10 dice every time you use the feat?

Assuming it doesn't, let't continue. You then twin this behemoth spell, adding 4 more levels, making it level 30, and making it so the spell does 1920 damage.

Knowing that it is practically impossible to cast a level 30 spell, you then take Improved Metamagic 3 times, which lowers every metamagic feat by 1 level. This is another question I have. Does that mean every metamagic feat you use is lowered 1 level, so if you used the same feat three times, it subtracts 3 levels, or does it mean it subtracts 1 level for every different metamagic feat?

If it means every feat you use, then, seeing as this spell has 6 feats on it, and you took improved metamagic 3 times, it would lower this spell to a level 12 spell. In order to get level 12 spells, you take Improved Spell Capacity 3 times.

I need the answers to these questions, the one about Intensify spell and how it relates to Enhanced Spell, and a clarification on the Improved Metamagic Feat. Thanks a lot.

Intensify Spell stacks with Enhance Spell. The note about it not being allowed to stack with other feats that change the numeric effects of the spell applies only to Empower Spell, as far as I know. Enhance Spell raises the cap, Energy Admixture adds to it, and Twin Spell casts it twice, and so none of them effect the numeric values directly. So that combination is indeed possible.

As for Improved Metamagic . . . You haven't been around these boards very long, have you? Although this is the first time I've seen a power spell like this doing that much damage without Empower Spell, the problem is still the same. Improved Metamagic. There have been several HUGE debates on this subject, most of them started by me because of balance concerns.

Are you wanting to go by the LETTER of the rules, which would destroy all balance within your campaign, utterly and irrevokably, or do you want to go with the House Rule that actually adds balance and makes much more sense?

If you go by the letter of the rules, whether it is the intent of the rules or not, then Improved Metamagic will reduce the level of that mammoth spell to a 12th-level spell. If you use this, however, you will be giving up any and all balance your campaign may or may not have, and you'll eventually have to start over from scratch, GUARANTEED.

The way to balance Improved Metamagic, without removing it from the game, is to have the feat modify only the FINAL spell level, not every single feat in it. That would make this power surge a 27th-level spell, and much more balanced. You would not be able to cast this spell until Level 56 MINIMUM because, don't forget, you must take Enhance Spell multiple times to stack it, and Improved Metamagic can't be taken until Level 27 to begin with, and you've have to take Improved Spell Capacity 18 times.

Do as you wish. This was a HUGE mistake on the part of the designers, allowing Improved Metamagic to work the way they do. DO NOT USE IT. If you do, you're campaign is dust. Use the House Rule I gave you or you WILL regret it. You've been warned.

 

[Xaven]

This is the first time I have been to the Rules board, so yeah, I'm new. This wasn't something that occurred in my campaign, it was just something my friend told me that could occur, and then proving it. I understand about the Improved Metamagic feat, as I was reading it I realized it was pretty nuts. If I ever come across that in one of my campaigns, I will definitely use your advice and only allow it on the final spell level, not every metamagic feat. Thanks a lot.

 

[Anubis]

No problem.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

You have to *really* tweak a character in order to pull of what you are proposing. Before you break out houserules, try designing the wizard that is going to cast this spell. That's a *lot* of feats, might take more levels than a 40th level wizard. When you finally design the character that can cast the spell, look at what the equivalent CR creatures are, and *then* make a judgment call.

 

[Xarlen]

Not to mention, to get your hands on all those Epic feats, you have got to be a HUGE level.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

Are you wanting to go by the LETTER of the rules, which would destroy all balance within your campaign, utterly and irrevokably, or do you want to go with the House Rule that actually adds balance and makes much more sense?

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Load To charge with additional meanings, implications, or emotional import: loaded the question to trick the witness.

 

[Crothian]

That was a good one CRGreathouse

 

[Vecna]

To Xaven: each metamagic feat applies to the original spell, so your spell would inflict:
10d6 base
15d6 empower X3
10d6 energy admixture
35d6 total, average 122.5 hp

If you intensify the spell, I guess you replace the original 10d6 with 120 (10*6*2) and then apply the rest:
120 +25d6, average 207.5

Some monster your level 40 character could meet:
Xixecal, 1656 hp, cold subtype but REF +47, CR 36
Force Dragon, Old: 1292 hp, REF +29, CR 37
Fire Elemental, Primal: 1296 hp, REF +66!, CR 35
Genius Loci: 1825 hp, REF +21, CR 30

And so on...
Assuming a Xixecal always fails his save (not likely), you need FOUR of the intensified version of fireball to bring him down.
Fighters in your party can easily bypass his DR 45/+9?
And he has fast healing, regeneration and spell resistance too...


To Anubis: read above

 

[CRGreathouse]

Some monster your level 40 character could meet:
Xixecal, 1656 hp, cold subtype but REF +47, CR 36
Force Dragon, Old: 1292 hp, REF +29, CR 37
Fire Elemental, Primal: 1296 hp, REF +66!, CR 35
Genius Loci: 1825 hp, REF +21, CR 30

And so on...
Assuming a Xixecal always fails his save (not likely), you need FOUR of the intensified version of fireball to bring him down.
Fighters in your party can easily bypass his DR 45/+9?
And he has fast healing, regeneration and spell resistance too...

Assuming SP, GSP, SF, GSF, ESF, and Int 45, it would take over 30 hits to kill the xixecal! Using more favorable rules (Sage's save rule, ESP) it would take about 25.