Epic Metamagic

[Anubis]

To Xaven: each metamagic feat applies to the original spell, so your spell would inflict:
10d6 base
15d6 empower X3
10d6 energy admixture
35d6 total, average 122.5 hp

If you intensify the spell, I guess you replace the original 10d6 with 120 (10*6*2) and then apply the rest:
120 +25d6, average 207.5

Some monster your level 40 character could meet:
Xixecal, 1656 hp, cold subtype but REF +47, CR 36
Force Dragon, Old: 1292 hp, REF +29, CR 37
Fire Elemental, Primal: 1296 hp, REF +66!, CR 35
Genius Loci: 1825 hp, REF +21, CR 30

And so on...
Assuming a Xixecal always fails his save (not likely), you need FOUR of the intensified version of fireball to bring him down.
Fighters in your party can easily bypass his DR 45/+9?
And he has fast healing, regeneration and spell resistance too...


To Anubis: read above

Actually, you're wrong on this. You see, Enhance Spell actually modifies the original spell itself, so all the other feats apply to the Enhanced version.

Also you can't use Empower Spell with Intensify Spell.

10d6 base
40d6 after Enhance Spell x3
+40d6 with Energy Admixture
all max x2 with Intensify Spell
double that with Twin Spell

That's:

[ (40 x 6 + 40 x 6) x 2 ] x2 = 1920 damage.

 

[Anubis]

You have to *really* tweak a character in order to pull of what you are proposing. Before you break out houserules, try designing the wizard that is going to cast this spell. That's a *lot* of feats, might take more levels than a 40th level wizard. When you finally design the character that can cast the spell, look at what the equivalent CR creatures are, and *then* make a judgment call.

I already said that you'd need a higher level.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

About loading the question . . . You don't believe me?

 

[Anubis]

My calculation is wrong, cause I used empower spell instead of enhance spell, halving the benefits.

My mistake, sorry!

However, from the D&D FAQ (last release 08/13/02, page 18)



So, the spell should be:

120 (base intensified)
30d6 (3 x empower)
10d6 energy admixture

120 + 40d6, average 260 hp

In the case of a fireball, twin spell = enhance spell (10d6 = 10d6).
In the case of a cone of cold, twin spell > enhance spell (15d6 > 10d6).

So, if you follow the rule "apply metamagic to the base spell", enhance spell is quite weak. It's a feat I'd never take.

You are not applying the rule correctly. Enhance Spell modifies the base spell itself, so all other feats on it apply to the Enhanced version.

The base spell rule is primarily targetted at Empower Spell, which is why the example is there.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

About loading the question . . . You don't believe me?

I play Improved Metamagic as is. It's powerful, but so is GC + WWA.

I *may* agree with you on this topic as I play more on epic levels, but I certainly don't agree with or advocate loading statements like that. Appeals to emotion and harsh words are no substitute for logical discussions.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Cannot tell you how much I agree with that.

I don't really have anything to add to yet ANOTHER round of this argument, save to answer an earlier question. I belive Energy Admicture doubles ALL elemental damage, but applying the rule that all MM feats affect only the base would makes sense, to. That still means 80D6 min., as the spell we are discussing stands.

 

[Vecna]

You are not applying the rule correctly. Enhance Spell modifies the base spell itself, so all other feats on it apply to the Enhanced version.

The base spell rule is primarily targetted at Empower Spell, which is why the example is there.

I agree with you. Enhance Spell is "a bit different" from other metamagic feats.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

I play Improved Metamagic as is. It's powerful, but so is GC + WWA.

I *may* agree with you on this topic as I play more on epic levels, but I certainly don't agree with or advocate loading statements like that. Appeals to emotion and harsh words are no substitute for logical discussions.

Read my whole post, I did both. I provided logical explanations (as if a 12-level spell that does nearly 2000 damage isn't enough to prove the point) AND I provided an emotional impact statement.

Improved Metamagic, as is, is broken. You can play with 12th-level spells dealing thousands of points of damage if you like, but I'll stick to game balance.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I'm in the MM should apply to the MM spell camp. It just seems really lame to me that if someone enlarged, and admiztured a fireball so it was a long range sonic/fireball, tha the end result would be a fireball that flew really far, and a shorter range sonic ball. As for muliple empowers, there are rules for doubling numeric efects just use those. This would meanby the way you couldn't maximize and empower since once maximized there wouldn't be a variable numeric effect to empower.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

Read my whole post, I did both. I provided logical explanations (as if a 12-level spell that does nearly 2000 damage isn't enough to prove the point) AND I provided an emotional impact statement.

Improved Metamagic, as is, is broken. You can play with 12th-level spells dealing thousands of points of damage if you like, but I'll stick to game balance.

What is the points of damage needed to be cosidered a true smackdown. 500 or so in one round. And that was before the epic rules. If 2000 points of damage from a 40th level wizard with a bunch of epic feats bothers you, you must have some serious problems with non-epic fighters etc. Face it a wizard can bust out insane damage 12th level spells for a short time and a 40th level fighter can bust out 500-1000 points of damage every round no problem. Where is the balance problem?