"Epic" Spells

[RisnDevil]

In the DMG, under the Epic progression for the Wizard, he gets one feat every five levels. Thats all. No more spells per day, or spell levels, without spending a feat. One feat, one new spell of one new level. That's it. If you want to continue to gain higher spells, you have to give up all else. Metamagic, Item Creation, anything. This just doesn't seem fair. Yes, there is Epic Spellcasting and the use of Epic Spells, of which you can cast more simply as time goes on by investing skill points, but that just doesn't seem right either. To this extant I was pondering what to do, and want the board members here to give their opinions.

I am not getting rid of "Epic Spells." They will stay, and will stay as their own entity.

Now I am using the Wizard as an example, though it will have to be tweaked per individual class. At level 21, they gain 0 10th lvl spells per day. This increases to 1 at lvl 25. Also, at lvl 25, you gain 0 11th lvl spells. This stays as 0 until lvl 29. Basically, at first they will only get bonus slots of the approprate level. They also only gain new levels every four levels, instead of every two. The logic behind this is that learning to manipulate such high magics takes more understanding and is slower to advance from one step to the next.

I don't see this being much of an issue for the Wizard, though the Sorceror may have some issues because of Spells Known and all, but I will tackle that issue later.

The way I see it, spellcasters really don't increase in what they were doing after level 20, like every other class. This allows them to continue to grow, and can be easily dropped into any system without being ground-breaking.

Please let me know what you guys think.

 

[Shariell]

it's not "quantity" but "quality" that matter at epic levels.
Since doesn't exist real 11th or 12th (or more) spells, the highest spell slot is redundant (if not to use high metamagic).
I much prefer a wizard with automatic quicken *3 (0-9), and multispell *2 than a wizard with 14th level spell slot. (but it's me...maybe your vision is different).
I think spellcasters rocks at epic level, because they can rely on their versatility and personal power. Instead, melee characters seems to me weak in comparision (except if they are properly min/maxed, but this depend by the DM that run the campaign), and far more dependant from their equipment (Quickened Mage Disjuncion anyone?).

BTW: a wizard in his epic progression according to the ELH have to take a feat every 3 levels. I know this manual it's not 3.5... so... it's the 1/5 feat rule something changed in 3.5?

 

[RisnDevil]

In the 3.5 DMG it gives the Wizard one bonus feat every five levels, I think. I will double check. And I believe the Automatic Metamagics are not officially 3.5, I think they believed that was a bit over-the-top for an Epic feat, and I am inclined to agree.

And yes, most of those higher level slots would just get used for metamagic, though I don't see why any resourceful players would not develop spells for them as well. As a matter of fact, in The Lost Empires of Faerun, they even mention that in Netheril's height there were both versions of high spells, high level and Epic.

I am assuming that most spells would have to be REALLY high level, though I see advantages being limiting how much damage you take or how much XP you have to use to cast the High Level versions.....

 

[Shariell]

I go check the 3.5 SRD...the "official" epic modifications are here

 

[Shariell]

According to the OFFICIAL 3.5 SRD, these 3 feats are official:

AUTOMATIC QUICKEN SPELL [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Quicken Spell, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots. The normal limit to the number of quickened spells a character may cast per round applies. Spells with a casting time of more than 1 full round can’t be quickened.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time a character takes the feat, the spells of his or her next three lowest spell levels can now be quickened with no adjustment to their spell slots. This feat doesn’t increase the casting time for those spells that normally become full-round actions when cast in metamagic form.

AUTOMATIC SILENT SPELL [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Silent Spell, Spellcraft 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as silent spells without using higher-level spell slots.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time a character takes the feat, the spells of his or her next three lowest spell levels can now be silenced with no adjustment to their spell slots. This feat doesn’t increase the casting time for those spells that normally become full-round actions when cast in metamagic form. However, since bard spells can’t be enhanced with the Silent Spell feat, they can’t be affected by this feat either.

AUTOMATIC STILL SPELL [EPIC]
Prerequisites: Still Spell, Spellcraft 27 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as stilled spells without using higher-level spell slots.
Special: A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time a character takes the feat, the spells of his or her next three lowest spell levels can now be stilled with no adjustment to their spell slots. This feat doesn’t increase the casting time for those spells that normally become full-round actions when cast in metamagic form.


So there's still auto-metamagic around us Enjoy

 

[RisnDevil]

Sorry, maybe I was thinking of someone's house rule that those weren't around. You were also right about the frequency of the Bonus Epic Feats for the Wizard. I just still don't think that it makes an sense that the only way for Wizards to continue gaining new levels of spells is through Feats. This says to me that at some point, Wizards essentially reach a plateau where only the most devout continue to make, work, and study higher and higher magics. This doesn't seem right. Why would a Wizard stop pushing his studies when he reaches Epic status? He wouldn't. Therefore he should continue to gain new spell levels. I do feel, mostly for flavor elements, that this should not be to the full extent of regular casting and spell level acquisition, which is why I halved the progression rate.

 

[Kerrick]

I think the reason they did it that way is because there are no spells of L 11, 12, etc. - just slots. All epic spells are considered 10th, so anything beyond that is just normal spells with metamagic. Now, if you were to make actual 10th, 11th, 12th etc. level spells, then you could have a progression to grant those slots (or not, as you wish). I did it this way - got rid of the DC-baed epic system, converted it all to levels, and grant new slots every 3 levels (1-10th level slot at 21st level, 2-10th at 24th, etc.) It goes a little slower, and you don't gain any new lower-level slots, but you DO gain new spells without all the feats.

 

[RisnDevil]

Kerrick

Did you have a set system for converting Epic Spells into non-Epic status? Or did you just wing it? Can you point me in a direction to do this?

 

[Shariell]

maybe you could try to set the DC class of epic spells to reflect certain degree of power.
Say for exemple..DC 50 = 10 level; DC 70 = 11 level; DC 90 = 12 level and so on...depending on what level you want to achieve.

PS. the REAL power o a REAL 12 level spell, in 2nd edition was "Karsus Avatar", the one and only 12th level spell ever made in all incarnations of D&D.
This spell, is something around 300/400 DC (if I recall correctly) spell according to rumors.
In 3.0/3.5 terms, I don't know how to estimate the real power level of that spell.
If you want to read something about Netheril and the spells above 9th level in 2nd edition D&D, you could download Netheril: Empire of Magic, from the wizard's of the coast website (it's free!).
In that book, there are some examples of spells you could use as guide.

 

[RisnDevil]

Although Karsus' Avatar is the only spell stated out, in The Lost Empires of Faerun it states that most spells in the time of Netheril had both an Epic and regular version, though all the regular version were lost/unable to be used after Karsus' Folly causing the split in the weave.