Everybody Cheats?

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs? Yes, Everybody Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion: Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is...

Gary Alan Fine's early survey of role-playing games found that everybody cheated. But the definition of what cheating is when it applies to role-playing games differs from other uses of the term. Does everyone really cheat in RPGs?

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Yes, Everybody​

Gary Alan Fine's work, Shared Fantasy, came to the following conclusion:
Perhaps surprisingly, cheating in fantasy role-playing games is extremely common--almost everyone cheats and this dishonesty is implicitly condoned in most situation. The large majority of interviewees admitted to cheating, and in the games I played, I cheated as well.
Fine makes it a point of clarify that cheating doesn't carry quite the same implications in role-playing as it does in other games:
Since FRP players are not competing against each other, but are cooperating, cheating does not have the same effect on the game balance. For example, a player who cheats in claiming that he has rolled a high number while his character is fighting a dragon or alien spaceship not only helps himself, but also his party, since any member of the party might be killed. Thus the players have little incentive to prevent this cheating.
The interesting thing about cheating is that if everyone cheats, parity is maintained among the group. But when cheating is rampant, any player who adheres slavishly to die-roll results has "bad luck" with the dice. Cheating takes place in a variety of ways involving dice (the variable component PCs can't control), such as saying the dice is cocked, illegible, someone bumped the table, it rolled off a book or dice tray, etc.

Why Cheat?​

One of the challenges with early D&D is that co-creator Gary Gygax's design used rarity to make things difficult. This form of design reasoned that the odds against certain die rolls justified making powerful character builds rare, and it all began with character creation.

Character creation was originally 3d6 for each attribute, full stop. With the advent of computers, players could automate this rolling process by rapidly randomizing thousands of characters until they got the combination of numbers they wanted. These numbers dictated the PC's class (paladins, for example, required a very strict set of high attributes). Psionics too, in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, required a specific set of attributes that made it possible to spontaneously manifest psionic powers. Later forms of character generation introduced character choice: 4d6 assigned to certain attributes, a point buy system, etc. But in the early incarnations of the game, it was in the player's interest, if she wanted to play a paladin or to play a psionic, to roll a lot -- or just cheat (using the dice pictured above).

Game masters have a phrase for cheating known as "fudging" a roll; the concept of fudging means the game master may ignore a roll for or against PCs if it doesn't fit the kind of game he's trying to create. PCs can be given extra chances to reroll, or the roll could be interpreted differently. This "fudging" happens in an ebb and flow as the GM determines the difficulty and if the die rolls support the narrative.

GM screens were used as a reference tool with relevant charts and to prevent players from seeing maps and notes. But they also helped make it easier for GMs to fudge rolls. A poll on RPG.net shows that over 90% of GMs fudged rolls behind the screen.

Cheating Is the Rule​

One of Fifth Edition's innovations was adopting a common form of cheating -- the reroll -- by creating advantage. PCs now have rules encouraging them to roll the dice twice, something they've been doing for decades with the right excuse.

When it comes to cheating, it seems like we've all been doing it. But given that we're all working together to have a good time, is it really cheating?
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Aldarc

Legend
His words establish the GM as a dictatorial autocrat. It's worth questioning Gary Gygax's position on game mastering. His authority on the matter may not be a position worth preserving, as it likely reflects an agenda that privileges his authority. Might Gygax as a Gamemaster who prefers gamemastering not have incentives to provide greater latitude of powers to his preferred play position? It backs this power in a rationality of the "greater good of the players," but is that just smoke and mirrors for preserving and propagating his power?


There are game systems that limit/restrict the responsibilities and capabilities of the DM/GM/MC/Narrator/etc. In a number of systems (e.g., Cypher System, Powered by the Apocalypse, etc.) the GM does not roll. They are incapable of Fudging dice rolls.

Powered by the Apocalypse provides a list of what a GM is permitted to do via GM-exclusive 'moves.'

The Cypher System even affords the GM to create rules-narrative exceptions via GM Intrusions. So for example, the GM may hand the player 2 XP as part of an intrusion and say, "Yes, you did hit that Zuro'gonx* incredibly well with your critical hit, but it was perhaps too well. And now your axe is stuck in the beast." The player may then spend 1 XP to reject it, or they can accept the 2 XP and the narrative consequences, with them then giving 1 of the 2 XP to another player at their discretion.

So it is not as if the loss of Rule Zero or Fudging would cause the foundations of tabletop roleplaying to crumble.

* No idea what it is, as I made it up, but Numenera is weird like that so its identity doesn't particularly matter.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
None of this is relevant to what I posted. I didn't say anything about following the rules closely or not changing the rules. I talked about the sort of adjudication that the GM was expected to engage in.

Carte blanche to do anything you want is not relevant? Then what is?

For instance, how can anyone think that Gygax's DMG would support fudging combat outcomes when, in the first page of the introduction (those opening paragraphs that [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] mentions), he says that while a GM is entitled to disregard a positive wandering monster roll where the players are playing well but getting unlucky and hence having their session spoiled, a GM should not have the wanderers appear and then allow the PCs to easily defeat them or escape from them, because that would be "contrary to the major precepts of the game."

Yes, it does support that. That's what carte blanche does. It supports everything the DM wants. Now, Gygax himself? No, he probably wouldn't support that, which is why he told the DMs to do things their own way, but be careful about what they do, and THEN gives his OPINION about how how HE does things.

What are those precepts? That players who play well should have their PCs propser, and that those who play with little skill should have their PCs suffer the consequences. This could hardly be clearer across his PHB and DMG.

The precepts that underpin "rule zero" as some in this thread are presenting it - that is, that every outcome at every moment of play, that the signficance of every player decision and every player die roll is, in principal, a matter over which the GM is entitled to exercise unreserved fiat - are not found at all in Gygax's AD&D books.

Opinions are not precepts.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Groups and individuals may prefer changes to the rules that are more suitable to their games. That's fine. But investing this into a singular person who can change this on their whims - whether it is done for the "greater good" (Greek chorus chants: the greater good) of the group or not - sits at odds with my own sensibilities that seeks a greater democratization of power and a deconstruction of the GM as Game God.

And you aren't alone in that. That's why so many games were created that minimize that sort of thing, and why groups of like minded people congregate. The same thing holds true for those of us who enjoy fiat greatly and like a DM with that sort of power. Assuming he isn't a douche and doesn't abuse it.

One of the guys in my group was more like you, but recently(a few years ago) started DMing. More and more as he sits on that side of things, he's appreciating DM fiat and what it can do for the game. Right now he sits somewhere between you and me on the spectrum I think. I don't think he will ever get to where I am on the spectrum, though, as he likes things to be structured.

It absolutely sends shivers down my spine every time I hear a game is referred to as the "DM's game" and not "the group's game," as if ownership belonged to the GM. It suggests a completely different, if not archaic, alignment of core gaming values.
It's like co-ownership in a business, where the DM has an 80% stake and the 4 players have 5% each. It's not the DM's game, but on the other hand it is since he has 80%. That said, if he abuses that power and authority, the others will sell their stake and leave, and 100% ownership of a roleplaying game is very lonely.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
If it allows cheating, then cheating occurs and it remains cheating. That cheating forms part of the game does not alter the nature of the act.

This is one thing that I just disagree with. If the rules allow something, then by definition it cannot be cheating. The context of cheating often centers around not altering the roll of the dice. You get what you get. However, the halfling lucky trait says that if you roll a 1, you can reroll it. That is not cheating in any way (well, you might "cheat death" as a result, but that's not the kind of cheating we're talking about).

If the rules explicitly say, "Rolling behind the screen lets you fudge the results if you want to" and the group decides this is a rule that they accept, then it is not cheating for the DM to do so. It's that simple.

It's not a matter of whether the GM can or cannot engage in these things, but that these things should be independently delineated and justified. If we presume that the GM is the final arbiter of the rules, then some GM Fiat is necessary. Groups and individuals may prefer changes to the rules that are more suitable to their games. That's fine. But investing this into a singular person who can change this on their whims - whether it is done for the "greater good" (Greek chorus chants: the greater good) of the group or not - sits at odds with my own sensibilities that seeks a greater democratization of power and a deconstruction of the GM as Game God.

It absolutely sends shivers down my spine every time I hear a game is referred to as the "DM's game" and not "the group's game," as if ownership belonged to the GM. It suggests a completely different, if not archaic, alignment of core gaming values.

Fair enough. But that doesn't mean that such a game is not a valid approach, nor is it cheating in any way. The fact is, that even within the context of AD&D (and others from the era, like the Holmes basic set) that specifically spell out the game as the "DM's game" it's still done so in the context of fairness and a responsibility to the players. It's a, "hey do you want to come over to my place and play in my world?" sort of "DM's game" and not an "I can do anything I want and screw you over" sort of game.

I think that over the years, bad DMs, along with well-intentioned guidance has given the idea of the "DM's game" a bad reputation. But what exactly does it mean? I (and my players) consider it the DM's game in the sense that I decide what setting we're playing in, what races and classes are allowed, and what rules in general we are using. We have extensive house rules, most of which I've written. I take the responsibility of being the DM seriously, and spend a lot of time working on things like rules, story arcs within the world, and just generally being prepared to make each session fun and exciting. And yet, the last session is as good an example as any as to what that looks like in practice in my game.

I currently run two nights, and a couple of the players play both nights. In each group, the players have multiple characters, and we have about 4 or 5 different character parties right now, all involved in events in the same time and location in the campaign. They often come together and then head off in different parties as the campaign unfolds. I see my job as handling the events and activities of the world and its inhabitants. In this example, one relatively important/powerful NPC was killed, and two others escaped, an attack by the Cult of the Dragon. The attack happened at a time and place where the PCs weren't present, but when things went awry, their attention was drawn to it. They have determined that the two that escaped used a magical painting to teleport to Waterdeep some 700 miles away.

On the other night, there are some other events entirely unrelated to this. The party on that night, most of whom do not live in the village, have determined that what they discovered is of importance to the village and wish to tell the authorities, which they do. Several of them also decide that as travelers, that the events of the night indicate that there are dangers here in town that they don't see any point in sticking around and they would like to leave and not wait for the caravan that they've been traveling with. So they head off to go shopping for supplies.

So in this session, two of the characters who are shopping for supplies, do so in the business of one of the PCs from the second night. So the first part of the session is the two PCs from night two at first interacting with a PC from night one, and then as they learn that these two travelers have information that may be of interest, fetching several of the other PCs (including two of the PCs of the players who are currently playing their PCs from night two). Probably a quarter of the session was spent with me as a spectator to the discussions and debates between the characters. After the two travelers left, further debate continued, and they gathered some of the other PCs that weren't yet present to decide on the best courses of action (there were several, and the parties were being formed in the moment).

The decision was made to then focus on the group of PCs that have decided to use the painting to head to Waterdeep to see if the two survived and what they can learn. This decision was made in part because one of the players is moving across the country, and he will have one session left before leaving. So I suggested we address the story arc that is most interesting to him right now.

So halfway through the session, where I have yet to really provide any input as DM other than to suggest that we do what he'd like, we find the PCs heading to Waterdeep. One of the players, however, has decided that none of his characters feel that they want to be involved in this particular direction. They are going to be busy addressing other pressing issues (of which this upcoming session will be focused on, because the friend that is moving won't be here this week). So they find that they painting deposits them into the sewers (they had already determined this). So I have a chance to explain to them what their options are (left or right, basically), and then what they find once they choose a direction. There was a bit of discussion amongst the characters disagreeing on how the character that opted to lead the way came to his decision. They found a secret door which led them into a tavern, which, they surmised, correctly, that the two they are following used to exit the sewers. It led into the Thirsty Throat, and the player who didn't have a PC decided he wanted to play the proprietor. So I gave him the description and personality, and a small bit of information, and now I'm once again the spectator as the PCs attempt to convince this man that they are in fact friends of the two they are looking for, and that if he knows anything (he does) he should help them. The information I provided is just enough for the player to handle the scene, but also generates more questions as to why he told them what he did and the manner in which he did it. The session ended shortly after they left the tavern through a secret exit he provided.

So in "my game" I, as DM, often am little more than a spectator or audient enjoying a play.

If you ask any of the players, there is no question that it's "the DM's game." In fact, it's not an uncommon comment for any of them (or players no longer currently in the campaign) to refer to it is "your game" or "Randy's game" etc. While I maintain it as "our game" when I talk about it or reference it, they always refer to it as my (the DM's) game. They are fully onboard with the idea that I have full veto power over character creation/background ideas, that the limitations set within my ruleset are how we play (ASIs are +1, not +2, you can't take a feat instead of one, gaining feats happen at different levels, there are save and die things like poison, critical hits can bypass hit points and potentially kill, or at least seriously endanger any level character, etc.). At the same time, I fully recognize that any rule, limitation, restriction, etc. that I want to impose must be accepted by the players at the table. In addition, like almost all of the rules of the game, I don't consider them absolute and I'm willing to consider exceptions given the circumstances and wishes of the players. The purpose of all of these are simply to provide an immersive experience for them to develop their characters and white their stories. While I can't say that some of them wouldn't want to play, say, a dragonborn, which don't appear in my campaign, they accept that the limitation is there for a purpose and they have plenty of other options and choices and run with it.

I have no doubt that "my game" is not the game for everyone. I continue to approach it in the same manner I always have, based on my interpretation/understanding of the game as a combination of the Holmes basic/B2/AD&D DMG. The specific mechanics might change, but the underlying approach remains the same. I view the rules as being there to support the narrative, not define it. The narrative is written largely by the players, with me usually reacting to what they do, but often interjecting a new event, challenge, or whatever. I personally like there to be an underlying rule for everything, because it helps me adjudicate things better, and I think players respond better knowing that there are rules that define how things will work. But they also know that the rules are flexible to suit the circumstances.

For example, in one particular encounter, a rather large and strong PC decided to jump off the stairs and kick a drow in an attempt to knock them down and eventually disable them to question them. He rolled a 20. In circumstances like this in our rules, the drow gets a saving throw, primarily to avoid being knocked prone. It rolled a 1. Normally he would roll double damage, and the drow would be injured from such a blow, and there's even a possibility of death from it. All of that really just felt irrelevant. My ruling was simple - you've crushed the drow's ribcage, and he crumples to the floor, coughing up blood, and clearly dying. The PC had seconds to try to extract any information from it before he died.

Did I fudge? I don't know. I didn't change the die rolls, but I skipped any additional rolling proscribed by the rules, going instead with a dramatic scene that made sense. Is it cheating? I don't see how it could possibly be described as such in almost any game, but in our game we explicitly understand that the rules are their as guidelines, and this didn't really need any guidelines. A 6'6" muscular human just crushed a drow.

When I asked about the ruling at the end of the session, it was unanimous that it's exactly what should have happened. It was also unanimous that there was no reason for me to question whether the ruling was appropriate. Their expectation is that I will determine what happens, with help from the rules, the dice, and considering the circumstances as described by me and them. They don't care what combination of those apply. The general consensus is that the less the players have to consult the rules, the better. They don't want to focus on rules or "play a game." They want to role-play their characters and their story within the setting I provide. That is, it's left entirely up to me to handle the rules and the adjudication and application of them. I don't think it gets to be more of a "DM's game" than that. But they don't want a "story-teller" game either. They want to know that there are underlying rules that help define the world, understanding that there may be exceptions to those rules. Most of the time, we try to work those exceptions back into the rules themselves.

There are three players in particular that are happy to work on tweaking rules, play-testing them specifically, and we agree that we should be able to mechanically represent how I run the game within a set of rules so others could use them if they want. And these three in particular help adjudicate when necessary, and help the other players (especially those that don't care to engage the rules), know what they should be doing. Our rules do change quite frequently. While we do let everybody know when something has changed, and they always have access to the rulebook online. But several of them really don't have an interest in them (and probably would really enjoy a story-teller game, one in particular has never really played D&D but loved playing Vampire: The Masquerade). So when something comes up that might have changed, we tell them what, and why, and the answer is almost always, "Oh, OK. That makes sense," and that's the end of it.
 

pemerton

Legend
You state: "There is not the least suggestion that something like the White Wolf "golden rule" should apply - ie that the GM is expected or entitled to fiat outcomes in the interests of "the story"."

I think that an example like, "you may wish to give them an edge in finding a particular clue, e.g. a secret door that leads to a complex of monsters and treasures that will be especially entertaining" is saying exactly that. Something that will "be especially entertaining" in the context of "the story." Because at the time, that was the story.
No. At the time there was no "the story". There is exploring the dungeon.

What do you think Gygax means when he says that fudging a combat with wandering mosnters would be contrary to the major precepts of the game?

Opinions are not precepts.
Likewise. What do you think Gygax means when he says that fudging a combat with wandering mosnters would be contrary to the major precepts of the game?
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
His words establish the GM as a dictatorial autocrat. It's worth questioning Gary Gygax's position on game mastering. His authority on the matter may not be a position worth preserving, as it likely reflects an agenda that privileges his authority. Might Gygax as a Gamemaster who prefers gamemastering not have incentives to provide greater latitude of powers to his preferred play position? It backs this power in a rationality of the "greater good of the players," but is that just smoke and mirrors for preserving and propagating his power?


There are game systems that limit/restrict the responsibilities and capabilities of the DM/GM/MC/Narrator/etc. In a number of systems (e.g., Cypher System, Powered by the Apocalypse, etc.) the GM does not roll. They are incapable of Fudging dice rolls.

Powered by the Apocalypse provides a list of what a GM is permitted to do via GM-exclusive 'moves.'

The Cypher System even affords the GM to create rules-narrative exceptions via GM Intrusions. So for example, the GM may hand the player 2 XP as part of an intrusion and say, "Yes, you did hit that Zuro'gonx* incredibly well with your critical hit, but it was perhaps too well. And now your axe is stuck in the beast." The player may then spend 1 XP to reject it, or they can accept the 2 XP and the narrative consequences, with them then giving 1 of the 2 XP to another player at their discretion.

So it is not as if the loss of Rule Zero or Fudging would cause the foundations of tabletop roleplaying to crumble.

* No idea what it is, as I made it up, but Numenera is weird like that so its identity doesn't particularly matter.


The issue behind people's dislike of fudging is not that the number has changed. It's that the GM is imposing their will over the game, when in theory they otherwise don't have that capability. That the actions of the player and the luck of the die aren't the deciding factor, but the GM is. It's a question of how much power the GM has, more than it is the mechanics of that power. People get hung up on fudging, but if the GM tells you after you complain that before they made the roll they determined that under these particular circumstances there was a bonus applied to the roll, and that's why it occurred, people have less of an issue with that. It's no longer fudging.

On the other hand. there are players that don't want the GM to have the power to make any such judgements. The rules state when a modifier is applied or not, and if those conditions aren't met, then the roll is not modified.

In story now games, the GM can absolutely still impose their will. It has to be done in a different way, and it might be more difficult, but the underlying problem can still exist. The GM intrusion you describe is essentially the same thing. In Cypher there is a mechanic to reject that intrusion, but the GM has still altered the results to their desire. In Apocalypse games, the players can't necessarily reject it, they have to find a way to work with it. Is it fudging? Cheating? Rule Zero? I don't know, and I don't think it matters. Many of these games seem to be designed to reduce the influence of the GM, as if it's a bad thing. They have rules, such as the ability to reject a DM "intrusion" to further reduce their power or influence on the game. Certainly there are ways to design a game that don't require a GM at all. But even without control of the rules, the GM will still have an influence on the game and the narrative.

I haven't played enough of those games, nor often enough, to claim any sort of mastery. All I can say is that they aren't the kind of game I enjoy. I really enjoy the AD&D-style approach of a GM that has near absolute control. Not so I can exercise superiority, but because I like the particular separation of powers. One of my goals is to allow the players to be immersed in their characters, and whenever they have to engage the rules, they are no longer immersed in their character. So if I'm in charge of the rules, then they can spend more time immersed in their characters. I love world building, I love writing rules, I love writing complex, inter-weaved narratives. All of these are things I can do without reducing the player's immersion and full control of their character within the game. The Gygaxian AD&D model is the best fit I've found, and more importantly, it's the model that seems to work best for the players in my campaigns.

I enjoy the theory, and probably drive my players a bit crazy with it from time-to-time. But there's a difference between idealistic theory and what works well. I get it, there are plenty of folks who feel that rule zero or fudging are unnecessary, bad game design, lazy GMing, whatever. But this is, after all, a game. And as such the most important thing is that the participants are enjoying it. And for a large amount of the RPG population, these methods are not a problem. And that's really the only thing I object to, the idea that one approach is "right" and the other is "wrong" when the reality is that it really just depends on the participants.

And no, I don't think it's smoke and mirrors for propagating his power. While I don't always agree with all of Gary's specific rulings, overall in interviews and chats with him it's clear that he saw the purpose of the GM to be a fair and impartial referee within the game to provide a place for the players to explore and enjoy. The idea that Rule Zero or fudging might be used from time-to-time is dependent upon that responsibility.
 

FM Fudging: Let's call a spade a spade and just admit that it's cheating.

Nice try, but I think a massive amount of the several hundred messages in this thread are debating whether that thing is actually a spade or not. ;) Hand waving away the entire discussion convinces no one.

If it allows cheating, then cheating occurs and it remains cheating. That cheating forms part of the game does not alter the nature of the act.

And that is as logically contradictory as a 3-sided square. Cheating means breaking the rules. If the rules allow it, it isn't cheating, it's following the rules - by definition. The statement "The rules allow cheating." is either a logical contradiction or using specialized (or Bizarro World) definitions for those words that are far from their actual, normal use.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
No. At the time there was no "the story". There is exploring the dungeon.

What do you think Gygax means when he says that fudging a combat with wandering mosnters would be contrary to the major precepts of the game?

Every adventure they published had some background and story to it, however thin.

But my point was that his example specifically references ignoring or adjusting the die roll for the purpose of more exploration that “would be particularly exciting.” If you want to choose to believe that there was no story (which we know is not the case for all people playing D&D at the time because prior to AD&D Ed Greenwood was already playing D&D where the fiction was more important), the purpose was exploration, which serves the same purpose that story serves now.

To answer the question about the precepts of the game, it’s all about exploration and the activities they happen within the game. It’s not about following the rules without intelligent input. If the purpose of the rules was specifically to follow them the same way you’d play a game of Monopoly, then the role of the DM would simply have been the creation of the world and not the referee.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Yes, it does support that. That's what carte blanche does. It supports everything the DM wants.
Well, the DM supports everything he wants, unhindered by any part of his carte not being blanche...

What are those precepts?
The carte blanche you just mentioned: the DM is final arbiter of the rules, so anything that does or does not happen in his game happens because he allowed it to happen, or made it happen. Nothing happens because a player decision or die roll result or a rule or interference from sunspots or a benign deity (unless you count the DM as benign) made it happen.


What do you think Gygax means when he says that fudging a combat with wandering mosnters would be contrary to the major precepts of the game?
What do you think Gygax means when he says that fudging a combat with wandering monsters would be contrary to the major precepts of the game?
A question so important, we had to ask it twice (I know, you asked it of two different people, but if you ask a question around here, just anyone might answer - and is about to).

I suspect it was something along the lines of a Zen (or Sith) Koan, not a simple answer, but a conundrum to contemplate as the player struggles on his path of acquiring Skill, eventually exceeding his own DM and, finally becoming DM, himself. Picture Keanu Reeves saying "There is no Rule...?"

... I mean, not really, EGG contradicted himself all the time.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
If it allows cheating, then cheating occurs and it remains cheating. That cheating forms part of the game does not alter the nature of the act.
If a game specifically in its rules allows cheating then by definition a player can't cheat, in that part of the definition of cheating is to go outside the rules...and so you end up with a paradox.

It's not a matter of whether the GM can or cannot engage in these things, but that these things should be independently delineated and justified. If we presume that the GM is the final arbiter of the rules, then some GM Fiat is necessary. Groups and individuals may prefer changes to the rules that are more suitable to their games. That's fine. But investing this into a singular person who can change this on their whims - whether it is done for the "greater good" (Greek chorus chants: the greater good) of the group or not - sits at odds with my own sensibilities that seeks a greater democratization of power and a deconstruction of the GM as Game God.

It absolutely sends shivers down my spine every time I hear a game is referred to as the "DM's game" and not "the group's game," as if ownership belonged to the GM. It suggests a completely different, if not archaic, alignment of core gaming values.
Have some shivers, then; because like it or not it is the DM's game in the end. Why? Simple: players are replaceable, but if the DM stops playing there is no game.

When I play in someone else's game it's because I've been invited to do so, and while usually these invitations have an open-endedness to them I'm also fully aware that they can in theory be withdrawn at any time and for any reason. As a DM I take the same approach: I invite players into my game who I'd like to have there and who I think will more or less get along with each other and with me; someone who just walks in uninvited, sits down, and says "run a game for me" is in for a rude awakening which will include a boot to the rear.

Keep in mind also, most games I've ever seen or been involved with are played at the DM's residence. FLGS situations* might be a bit different in that a DM has to run for whoever shows up and can't toss out a player until and unless that player's actions warrant such...but even there the DM still has final say over the rules and rulings within the game.

* - and AL play is different again, the DMs are much more restricted there in what they can do.

When a DM does something I-as-player don't agree with I can voice my objections, but in the end that's all I can do (other than leave the game, which rather defeats the purpose). If all the other players agree with my objection, however, then a reasonable DM might have some re-thinking to do.

IME the worst and fiercest arguments come when half the players agree with something and the other half don't...particularly if the change was proposed by a player in the first place, which happens. But in the end, it's still the DM's call.

Lanefan
 

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