D&D 5E "Evil" options limited to the DMG?

[doctorhook]

I've heard rumours that blackguard subclass for paladins and the death domain for clerics will both be stashed in the DMG. (Source?) I had assumed the idea was that evil-themed character options would be best if printed away from the main options Player's Handbook, to emphasize their optional nature.

Upon reflection, I'm thinking that assumption might be totally wrong. The rumours I've heard say that the assassin subclass for rogues and the necromancer subclass for wizards will be in the Player's Handbook, and both of those certainly lean towards evil (especially if the rumoured flavour of 5E necromancy turns out to be true). The warlock class is strongly flavoured towards the character have a personal relationship with evil (or at least certainly non-good) entities. I've also heard we should expect to see drow as a player race in the PH, and based on a similar note beside dwarves in 5Basic, I kind of expect to see duergar too.

Given that this is mostly speculation based on rumours and obsolete documents, I don't know what to believe. If the above rumours are all true though, then my assumption for why blackguards and death clerics ended up in the DMG is totally wrong.

If death clerics and blackguards are only the DMG, why? I want to hear what other people are thinking.

 

[Evenglare]

Just sharing what I know.

I've heard rumours that blackguard subclass for paladins and the death domain for clerics will both be stashed in the DMG. (Source?)

Probably from the alpha. No such subclasses exist for either, though paladin does have a vengence subclass.

Upon reflection, I'm thinking that assumption might be totally wrong. The rumours I've heard say that the assassin subclass for rogues and the necromancer subclass for wizards will be in the Player's Handbook, and both of those certainly lean towards evil (especially if the rumoured flavour of 5E necromancy turns out to be true). The warlock class is strongly flavoured towards the character have a personal relationship with evil (or at least certainly non-good) entities..

You are right that assassins, necromancers, and even monks with a shadow path are in the PHB (again, if the alpha is to be believed). Sure some things may be a bit different, but I'd imagine the document is generally going to give a good idea what's in the book. Those classes along with warlocks I would agree could easily be evil. The necro flavoring specifically calls out to be LIFE and DEATH, actually moving away from evil moreso than most necro flavorings I have seen. Assassins don't necessarily have to be evil (ala assassin's creed games) they surely had some influence. The shadown monks are known to be ninjas, which follow the same line of thinking as assassins (ninja gaiden games), and warlocks... well see below.

If death clerics and blackguards are only the DMG, why? I want to hear what other people are thinking.

So my thinking is that D&D love to flirt with evil but not necessarily give those blatant evil options in the players guide. Tieflings, warlocks, assassins, ninjas, vengeance paladins, necromancers (as described with having powers over LIFE and DEATH).... all of these DO flirt with evil but none of them are ONLY !!!!KILL EVERYTHING DEATH TO ALL!!!! evil. It's annoying and I hope the playtest is wrong and we DO have those evil death classes but I'm not counting on it.

 

[doctorhook]

I appreciate the response, Evenglare.

Probably from the alpha. No such subclasses exist for either, though paladin does have a vengence subclass.

I'm kinda confused by this comment. Are you saying that what I heard about blackguards and the death domain come from the alpha, or that neither subclass exists in the alpha? Cuz I haven't looked at the alpha, and I ain't got no time for alpha documents now.

I definitely recall reading something (by Mearls, IIRC) saying that there would be blackguards and there would be a death domain, and that both would make their appearances in the DMG. Obviously that's not quite confirmation, but I was kinda hoping I hadn't imagined this, and that somebody else read the same thing I did. (Morrus' 5E rumour/release summary is not nearly as comprehensive as the one he had for 4E.)

You are right that assassins, necromancers, and even monks with a shadow path are in the PHB (again, if the alpha is to be believed). Sure some things may be a bit different, but I'd imagine the document is generally going to give a good idea what's in the book.

Fair enough, I'll try to restrain my contempt for the insufferable alpha-quoters floating around right now. Also, I was not aware of shadow monks until now, so thank you for pointing that one out to me!

Those classes along with warlocks I would agree could easily be evil. The necro flavoring specifically calls out to be LIFE and DEATH, actually moving away from evil moreso than most necro flavorings I have seen. Assassins don't necessarily have to be evil (ala assassin's creed games) they surely had some influence. The shadown monks are known to be ninjas, which follow the same line of thinking as assassins (ninja gaiden games), and warlocks... well see below.


So my thinking is that D&D love to flirt with evil but not necessarily give those blatant evil options in the players guide. Tieflings, warlocks, assassins, ninjas, vengeance paladins, necromancers (as described with having powers over LIFE and DEATH).... all of these DO flirt with evil but none of them are ONLY !!!!KILL EVERYTHING DEATH TO ALL!!!! evil. It's annoying and I hope the playtest is wrong and we DO have those evil death classes but I'm not counting on it.

Certainly you're right about evil PCs in D&D: evil-adjacent and antiheroic characters are much more popular than outright villains. Anyway:

• My impression had been that necromancy would be more evil- and undeath-themed than in the recent past, based on cues taken from the necromancy spells in 5Basic.
• Assassins obviously need not be evil, but their association with evil alignment goes all the way back to the 1E AD&D Player's Handbook.
• Certainly infernal warlocks are evil-adjacent at best, and star warlocks are either only slightly better or much, much worse depending on your perspective. (Fey warlocks are mainly chaotic, whether good or evil or neither.)
• Shadow magic, including the shadow monk you talk about, has traditionally been presented as evil-adjacent. YMMV.

Somehow I'm now off-topic in my own topic. If any class options are relegated to the DMG, why? Are they meant to be NPC-only options?

 

[Evenglare]

In response to your first question, no such subclasses exist in the alpha. I have the same mindset as you . I love me some blackguards and death clerics. I'm just sharing info from what I have seen in the alpha. As far as why this stuff isnt in the PHB or why it will probably be in the DMG may be a left over remnant from 4e. They did the same kind of stuff when that edition first came out. If they aren't in the PHB I REALLY hope they are in the DMG. I don't want to have to wait for a Book of Vile Darkness to have those classes. That isn't to say I don't want a BOVD... I just don't want to wait for that book to come out to get the stuff that should be in the base game.

 

[jadrax]

I've heard rumours that blackguard subclass for paladins and the death domain for clerics will both be stashed in the DMG. (Source?)

Fair enough, I'll try to restrain my contempt for the insufferable alpha-quoters floating around right now.

You can not really start discussing rumours and then tell people you are not interested in the largest source of all the rumours right now.

 

[Phaezen]

Somehow I'm now off-topic in my own topic. If any class options are relegated to the DMG, why? Are they meant to be NPC-only options?

Try to think of it in teirs.

Basic - These options are in all games unless the DM says no.

PHB - These options are in many games, ask your DM first though

DMG - These options are setting/campaign specific, your DM may allow them if they suit the campaign.

 

[Li Shenron]

If death clerics and blackguards are only the DMG, why? I want to hear what other people are thinking.

Maybe because they want to clearly identify "evil PC parties" as an optional gamestyle choice.

While not always true, the stuff in the PHB usually feels like it's player-decided while the stuff in the DMG and MM is more DM-decided (group-decided).

 

[doctorhook]

You can not really start discussing rumours and then tell people you are not interested in the largest source of all the rumours right now.

You're not wrong--I'm being overly picky, aren't I?

We're just a couple weeks out of the Player's Handbook early release. These days, I only care what's actually going to be in the published book; talking about a months-old closed playtest package feels like a very frustrating step backwards.

 

[doctorhook]

Maybe because they want to clearly identify "evil PC parties" as an optional gamestyle choice.

While not always true, the stuff in the PHB usually feels like it's player-decided while the stuff in the DMG and MM is more DM-decided (group-decided).

This gets back to what I was discussing upthread. If blackguards and death clerics are "too evil" to be assumed in the core game, but assassins and necromancers aren't, what's the fundamental difference?

...God do I wish I had the 5E PH (and DMG) right now.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This gets back to what I was discussing upthread. If blackguards and death clerics are "too evil" to be assumed in the core game, but assassins and necromancers aren't, what's the fundamental difference?

...God do I wish I had the 5E PH (and DMG) right now.

Well, just going on your examples, it looks like Divine-backed Evil is the issue here, which yes, makes zero sense, but...

Frankly I think it's bizarre to put Blackguards and Death Clerics in the DMG. Classes should be player books, period. If the class is NPC only, it shouldn't be a class, it should be an entry in the Monster Manual which describes the thing (perhaps in class-like terms, but not as a class). Equally, it'd be bloody silly for the Death domain to be in the DMG, given very few Death Gods are actually Evil - the FR has had Evil and Neutral ones, PoL had a Neutral one, I believe the Eberron one is Neutral, of the real-world Pantheons only Hel seems Evil-evil (certainly Hades isn't, crappy Disney cartoons notwithstanding).

Hopefully this rumour is complete gibberish. I will be pretty peeved if they've wasted space in the DMG with this kind of thing. Either save it for a later playerbook, put it in Dragon/online, or don't publish it. Don't put it my DMG.