Evil with a Capital "E"

[Balsamic Dragon]

Can't remember whether this was mentioned on these boards, or where I got the idea, but here it is:

Creatures are "Evil" with a capital E if they are one of the following: outsiders from an evil plane, evil undead, clerics who have the evil domain, or those who have been lured by and/or pursued the favor of evil gods.

Creatures who are "evil" with a small e if they are generally selfish, hateful, nasty guys who tend to kill or hurt others for their own pleasure and benefit.

I am considering making it a rule in my new campaign that all references to Evil in the PH (including Detect Evil, Protection from Evil, Smite Evil, etc) refer to Evil with a capital E, not evil with a small e.

Basically, this would mean that Paladins and good-aligned clerics would be somewhat limited, but the upside is that alignment will become more of a roleplaying tool and less of a game mechanic limitation.

Of course, there would also be corresponding capital letter Good (Paladins), Chaotic, Lawful, etc...

Thoughts?

Balsamic Dragon

 

[Henry]

I wouldn't want it for my campaigns, but It doesn't sound like ti has any inherent flaws. It would also (strange to say this) muddy the waters between good and evil, while simultaneously making Evil crystal clear. That's why I wouldn't want it for myself.

Go for it!

 

[zhouj]

, I don't think this is necessary. The system is fine as it is. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

 

[Ravellion]

I like this. When you've tested this a bit, let us now okay?

Rav

 

[Nightfall]

I agree. I think evil is evil, no matter the source. Heck I think some outsiders could LEARN from their mortal counterparts. I mean Galdor the Deathless and Virduk are the kind of ideas for each type of evil, LE and CE.

 

[nsruf]

, I don't think this is necessary. The system is fine as it is. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."

I disagree with that. IMO, alignment as is is broken and hard to handle. There are a lot of logical and/or ethical problems arising from that system. The entire way societies are run and crimes are persecuted would have to change if you applied it seriously in any campaign world.

The ability to detect alignments can - properly employed - kill a lot of classical story lines (unless you give each and every major NPC in your games a ring of mind-shielding, and then there would be laws against these...). And if you remove the spells from the game or weaken them, the 9 alignments seem to broad a classification of character types to be meaningful as a guide for roleplaying.

I think the way Balsamic Dragon wants to handle it is quite good, because it meshes well with existing spells and magic items but still gets rid of the worst problems.

*looks closely at the horse he has been beating*
Hm, looks like it died some time ago...

 

[zhouj]

I agree. I think evil is evil, no matter the source. Heck I think some outsiders could LEARN from their mortal counterparts. I mean Galdor the Deathless and Virduk are the kind of ideas for each type of evil, LE and CE.

I assume you're agreeing with me?

 

[zhouj]

I disagree with that. IMO, alignment as is is broken and hard to handle. There are a lot of logical and/or ethical problems arising from that system. The entire way societies are run and crimes are persecuted would have to change if you applied it seriously in any campaign world.

The ability to detect alignments can - properly employed - kill a lot of classical story lines (unless you give each and every major NPC in your games a ring of mind-shielding, and then there would be laws against these...). And if you remove the spells from the game or weaken them, the 9 alignments seem to broad a classification of character types to be meaningful as a guide for roleplaying.

I think the way Balsamic Dragon wants to handle it is quite good, because it meshes well with existing spells and magic items but still gets rid of the worst problems.

*looks closely at the horse he has been beating*
Hm, looks like it died some time ago...

Alignment in reality is already highly variable depending on the culture. One evil act here is acceptable somewhere else. It's extremely hard to have a definite defintion of alignment. Magic is a huge part fo D&D, the DM should be accounting for the fact that the PC's have spells for detecting alignments and think of a realistic way to account for this difference from reality. Besides, evil is evil whether its from its demon or the local drug dealer.

 

[Mark Chance]

That's the way I've always done it

Detect evil has always been used the way B-Dragon describes. It is even heavily implied in the description of the spell, although the presence of the "evil creature" category muddies the waters.

In my games, detect evil reveals evil intention (as per 2E) or innately evil creatures (those that are Evil). It won't, for example, detect an orc guard minding his post (no evil intention) but it will detect the orc thug sneaking up on you with murder in his foul heart.

 

[nsruf]

Alignment in reality is already highly variable depending on the culture. One evil act here is acceptable somewhere else.

Yes, but that is why I dislike the way D&D turns it into an absolute force for ANYONE. The distinction between evil and Evil is a step away from that.

It's extremely hard to have a definite defintion of alignment. Magic is a huge part fo D&D, the DM should be accounting for the fact that the PC's have spells for detecting alignments and think of a realistic way to account for this difference from reality. Besides, evil is evil whether its from its demon or the local drug dealer.

The problem is that a lot of NPCs will have these spells as well. But how many cities in your campaign world use "detect law" at the gates and deny all non-lawful people - i.e. potential troublemakers - access? I just believe that a lot of that should happen. There is just an unspoken agreement between DMs, players and game designers not to push things too far, but there is really no way of preventing it.

Some other situations, which I think should be commonplace:

- alignment should affects justice, i.e. judgements would be harsher for evil characters than for good ones and in some places, being evil and/or chaotic alone could be grounds for punishment

- a beggars guild with some adepts or low level clerics of Olidammara uses "detect good" to pick out targets who are sure to give to the poor

- a cleric could, at the beginning of church service, detect improper alignments and publicly chastise those members of his parish

- there could be no secret evil cults or conspiracies except in remote locations or only if all member are of high enough level/wealth to constantly hide their alignment