Excerpt: Economies [merged]

[pawsplay]

Keep in mind that magic has been greatly decreased in 4e.

I really don't think so. Magic missile all day?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I really don't think so. Magic missile all day?

Magic Missile all day,
A Fighter is not automatically assumed to carry 6-12 magical items
The Rogue and Bard using "Clerics-On-a-Stick" aka Wands of Cure Light Wounds to heal their comrades after a battle.
Magic not being able to out-shine everything a "mundane" character does at high levels.

Yes, overall, that is reduction of magic. You can reduce it further, but for real low-fantasy, you have to remove the spellcaster as a playable character class in the first place.

 

[JohnSnow]

I really don't think so. Magic missile all day?

Except magic missile in 3e was auto-hit, no save, and its damage escalated with level. By comparison, a 4e magic missile is an attack with the following stats:

at-will, +5 atk vs. REF, Range 20, 2d4 + 5 dmg (avg 10).

That sounds almost like a ranger with a longbow...let's compare, shall we?

at-will, +6 atk vs. AC, Range 20/40, 1d10 + 4 dmg (avg 9.5).

Except for the difference in targeted defense, I'd say those are pretty comparable. And that's the ranger's basic attack.

Yeah, that's clear evidence that 4e wizards are overpowered.

Yes, low-level magic is pretty ubiquitous. But magic isn't quite the trump card it used to be.

 

[Ximenes088]

Maybe they are insane. Something's missing here. If people will pay 5,000 gp for an item, but they can only sell it to the faceless merchants for 1,000, then what's to stop a player from putting out the word that they'll buy said items for 2,000 and sell it for 4,000? It seems to me to be a no-brainer that you've got 2,000 easy gps coming to you just because the NPCs are foolish.

It is a perfectly valid world-building choice to decide that's the case, and let PCs undercut the market. The DM will then have to decide where the market stabilizes, somewhere between salvage cost and creation cost, and he'll have to deal with the fallout of PCs being able to acquire optimized magic gear much more easily than by default, but if a DM wants to do that, the world will make perfect sense that way.

And if the DM doesn't want that? The PCs advertise what they've got, Duke B'beg comes over, kicks them around, and takes it. Merchant Prince Smythe has paid off his protection money to the Duke, but the adventurers plainly think they can operate on his turf without paying his fees. That ain't so. The Duke expects all the big merchants in his duchy to come up with their "taxes", and the merchants put up with it because he'll take everything if they try to move out- and besides, it's not like the neighboring lords are much better. It's a perfectly realistic and plausible situation that just happens to both enforce the default and give the PCs a running motivation to push the Duke's teeth in someday.

For just about any level of PC, the same principle can apply in a PoL world. You need a "roof" if you're going to do business, and the roof doesn't come cheap. And if you're really all that ready, willing, and able to carve out your own market and hold it against the land-pirates and thieves that would take it from you, then you're probably playing exactly the campaign you want to play. At that point, if the PCs really are enjoying dealing with the situation, then there's no balance issue in letting them accomplish their mercantile endeavours, as the profit will cover the treasure they'd otherwise have gotten adventuring.

 

[Andor]

As it happens, setting up an eBay clone should be quite doable in DnD. Magic can provide the rapid communication/transport that eBay runs off of.

Man, I am not a grognard but this sentence just made me puke in my hat.

Well e-bay would be a bit much but perhaps the Barrett-Jackson auctions are worth thinking about. Let's consider this for a second. I don't think the concept of the auction would be foreign to most D&D worlds.

Let's suppose that the PoL setting has, say, 7 cities that the PCs know about that are large enough to function as centers of trade.

If 4e contains rules for:

1) Some type of linked scrying/communication device like the Palantir or headbands of communication.
2) Teleportation of goods, or a person with a reasonable weight limit.

Then that is all the PCs need to setup a linked set of auction houses. One warehouse/auction house in each city. Hold an auction as often as the trade calls for. Probably start of with one a year or every 6 months or so, then ramp it up as demand increases.

A master list of items for auction is assembled. The theatre (probably as nicely appointed as possible) in each city has on stage an announcer/auctioneer in magical contact with the other 6 auction houses. An illusionist projects an image of the item for sale above the stage (including in the one where the item actually is. Obfuscating the location of the loot is good security.) Bidding is conducted in all 7 houses simultaneously. Once an auction has been concluded payment is aranged, and once completed the item is teleported to the appropriate auction house and delivered to the buyer.

If the appropriate magic is available bulk goods sales could even be done this way. (Permanently enchanted circles of teleportation that allow travel between linked locations for example.)

From what we know of the tiers I'm guessing a group would have to be late paragon to early epic to set this up. They'd make a fortune and utterly change the setting for the better. Sounds heroic to me.

 

[pawsplay]

And if the DM doesn't want that? The PCs advertise what they've got, Duke B'beg comes over, kicks them around, and takes it.

Except this is 4e, so Duke B'beg is a balanced encounter.

 

[Sojorn]

From what we know of the tiers I'm guessing a group would have to be late paragon to early epic to set this up. They'd make a fortune and utterly change the setting for the better. Sounds heroic to me.

Don't you mean epic? (Har har)

Love the idea though. And naturally no one thought of this idea before for the same reason that the PCs keep getting to all these unlooted ruins first.

 

[Rex Blunder]

Except this is 4e, so Duke B'beg is a balanced encounter.

Zing! Because while 3e tried to make every encounter balanced, and provided extensive guidelines to do so, we all know that the guidelines were utter failures! So even though the DM tried to provide a CR-appropriate challenge, the Duke still outmatched the PCs! Way to stick it to 3e, Pawsplay!

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

As people have said, the rule is there for game balance. Based on the magic items article, you're essentially sacrificing 1 point of "bonus" when you trade-in something. So, the PC who really wants a flaming axe can trade that +2 frost sword he just found a replacement for in to get a +1 flaming axe. is it fair to argue he should sacrifice 1 point of bonus to be able to customize his gear to that degree? Personally, given those comparisons, I think it's a fair trade, gp value aside.

Going from +2 Sword to +1 Axe isn't balanced (assuming the other attributes are equal in value).

"The game assumes that the “plus” of each of these three items follows the normal enhancement curve of items in the game: +1 from 1st to 5th level, +2 from 6th to 10th, and on up to +6 from 26th to 30th."

So if at 6th level a player needs to trade the level +2 frost sword (say a level 10 item) he found for a +1 flaming axe (say a level 5 item), and flaming and frost are of equal value, he's screwed...for five levels. If, in the process of placing items, you're putting a weapon in the game for a player that he won't like (and in some cases, one that can't be used with his powers), so he can be punished for trying to get one that he does like (or can be used with his powers) that has nothing to do with realism or balance, it is just petty meanness and some dominance issues.

Magic items are supposed to be a reward, if players are selling magic items, particularly big 3 items, because the DM is never giving them things they like, then the DM isn't giving them a reward. That doesn't stop you from throwing in an occasional item you know nobody will want to mix up the you get x items you can use and some gold and a potion monotony, but that item is just gold or a minor magic item that hasn't been transformed yet.

What the system can do, for a well-intentioned DM, is ensure that a player who is particularly good at wrangling items (and every party has one) doesn't get the +4 level or +3 level item all the time and convert it into something he can use and end up with all great items while someone else gets the shaft. There is no, "Well you're the cleric so we'll sell your level +4 weapon and get the fighter level +4 armor this level to go with the level +4 weapon he got last level."

But, in the hands of a DM that wants to item railroad a player into playing a certain class the 'right' way, the system gives the player no chance to recover (e.g. a cleric that likes to whack things with their halberd never finding any nice halberds but getting heal/buff items all the time as his above character level items).

Hopefully, the magic item or rewards section will make it clear that magic items are a reward and that the DM should try to give players things that they'll like.

 

[Stalker0]

But, in the hands of a DM that wants to item railroad a player into playing a certain class the 'right' way, the system gives the player no chance to recover (e.g. a cleric that likes to whack things with their halberd never finding any nice halberds but getting heal/buff items all the time as his above character level items).

The only way to remove that completely would be to take equipment out of the game. The DM is the master of the dungeon, and no rule system can stop a bad DM from screwing with everyone's fun. Sure it can help, and it definitely help inexperienced dms run better games, but if a dm is determined to force characters to play a certain way, then only the players can stop him by voicing their grievances, and/or leaving the game.