Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[Pinotage]

Huh? Obviously, multi-classing can only be compared to how it was handled in previous editions of the game, and for those of us who like the method or at least the idea of how it was implemented are going to see this implementation as something way short of what we want and are used to.

It is just this taking feats things doesn't seem like "multi-classing" as you don't really have multiple classes, you just have a power or two from another class in addition to your main class.

Yip. That's pretty much what I was going to say in reply to the same question. Having one power from another class isn't multiclassing. It's just another power. To multiclass, you need to capture the flavor of what the multiclass suggests. A fighter/wizard should act like one. He shouldn't be a fighter that's capable of only a fireball once per encounter. He should be more. Likewise a Cleric of Trickery, such as a cleric/rogue, should be more than just a cleric with one rogue power that allows him to tumble, for example. I don't think feat multiclassing does enough to justify the term 'multiclass'.

Pinotage

 

[Green Knight]

No, not really.

All Paragon Paths have a Prerequisite, that being the class from which that Paragon Paths spins out of (Justiciar has "Requirement: Paladin"). So you can only choose a Paragon Path from your class, or from the class of your Multiclass feat.

I think you misunderstood my post. I'm talking about multiclassing. I.E. trading in a Paragon Path for class abilities (Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, etc) instead. From the article on Paragon Paths...

"(Alternatively if you wish, you can also select powers from a second class in place of a paragon path. That’s described in the information on multiclassing, and something we’ll cover in a future preview article.)"

 

[Pinotage]

Well, not exactly - your Fighter would be a Fighter with Arcana, Magic Missile 1/encounter, and Fireball. This does suggest a little more than a fighter with a necklace of Fireballs.

Not really. He's a fighter with a few wizard tricks. He's not a fighter/wizard. The concept and flavor are very different to what this kind of feat multiclassing allows. Perhaps it's an inherent problem with the 4e system as a whole, where powers are everything, but I haven't really thought that through.

Pinotage

 

[Kraydak]

Soldier of the Faith gives you the Paladins Divine Challenge ability right at first level. It's that ability that makes a Paladin a Defender. Student of the Sword gives you the ability to mark, but it's not clear what that means, if you gain the combat challenge ability. Either way, you can partially fill the rolls of other classes through these multiclass feats, and right at first level.

Soldier of the Faith gives you some ability to be a Defender. Sneak of Shadows and Warrior of the Wild give you some ability to be a Striker. And Initiate of the Faith and Student of Battle gives you a bit of the healing ability of a Leader.

Soldier of the Faith gives you Divine Challenge... as a per encounter ability. You cannot fulfill the role of defender in any meaningful way with that.

 

[whydirt]

Yip. That's pretty much what I was going to say in reply to the same question. Having one power from another class isn't multiclassing. It's just another power. To multiclass, you need to capture the flavor of what the multiclass suggests. A fighter/wizard should act like one. He shouldn't be a fighter that's capable of only a fireball once per encounter. He should be more. Likewise a Cleric of Trickery, such as a cleric/rogue, should be more than just a cleric with one rogue power that allows him to tumble, for example. I don't think feat multiclassing does enough to justify the term 'multiclass'.

Pinotage

Aside from being able to write Fighter X / Wizard Y on your character sheet, what does the new system of multiclassing lack in terms of actual use in-game? You say they should be more, but you don't say what's specifically missing.

 

[rowport]

Honestly? I don't like this one bit. This is probably the first 4th edition excerpt that has left me completely disappointed. As the article mentions - multiclassing is being introduced as an afterthought. I thought feats for multiclassing were merely going to be one of the many options - learning that you can't ACTUALLY multiclass and instead take feats to emulate it is really lame.

Daeger summed up my opinion perfectly here. I don't mind having a *single* multiclass feat, but requiring another one for each power swap is absurd.

What I find baffling about it, is that Star Wars SAGA has such a simple, elegant solution to effective multiclassing. Why not just emulate that? Unless FranktheDM's conspiricy theory is correct: make multiclassing suck (again) to encourage the need for more core classes. Suxxor.

 

[dimonic]

Check out the Tiers article.

Yeah, I edited my post - I don't think you can retrain powers that quickly.

 

[hong]

Not really. He's a fighter with a few wizard tricks. He's not a fighter/wizard.

In 4E, a fighter is a fighter with a few fighter tricks.

The REAL question is whether spending the feats to get more than a couple of powers is going to be worth it.

 

[vagabundo]

It is a major kick in the pants to diversity and customization by multi classing multiple classes.
But ~80 powers and approximately 15 feat slots instead of 7 feat slots seem to open up entirely new ways to customize your specific character.

It could also help that we might not get boring stuff like "Better Attack Bonus", "Even Better Attack Bonus", "More Damage", "Even More Damage", "More Damage and More Attack Bonus - Yay!!" customization. Or "Improved Combat Maneuver", "A better Improved Combat Maneuver" "Use Combat Maneuver in a different situation then usual", or "Cast the Same Spell, but better" types of customization. Though this hope might be premature.

They have done the right thing(tm), imo. Given more class options and make feat interesting tweaks for said class features in a generic way.

So a feat would alter a burst power, doesn't matter what the power source is, or a ranged attack roll, in interesting ways. This will lead to tactical options in a non-fiddly way.

It is multidabbling and most players wont care. Those that do will have their multiclassing++ in a future splatt or 3rd party offering.

 

[Green Knight]

Yeah, I edited my post - I don't think you can retrain powers that quickly.

You don't need to use Feat retraining. From the multiclassing article.

Any time you gain a level, you can alter that decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the power-swap feat for the first time at the new level you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you gave up originally from your primary class, lose the power that you chose from your second class, and make the trade again. You give up a different power from your primary class and replace it with a new power of the same level from your second class.

In other words, you've got a 6th-level Fighter with the Novice Power Feat with a 3rd-Level Spell and 1st-Level Exploit. He just hit 7th-level. He now has a choice. He can keep his 3rd-Level Spell, or he can trade it in for a 3rd-Level Exploint and gain a 7th-Level Spell.