Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[am181d]

With a paragon path, you get roughly three class features and three powers. As far as how this would apply to multiclassing: the powers part is pretty straight-forward. My *guess* is that the class features parts let you pick up at-wills, maybe weapons, etc. (Of course, I'm sure that there are also armor and weapon training feats.)

 

[KidSnide]

You have to figure that other feats will offer ways to customize your character in multiclass-like ways. If you have a melee-based striker or leader, adding toughness and better armor will go a long way to making you a viable 1st rank melee fighter. You don't necessarily need fighter powers (although a touch of marking would help), since your classes natural melee based powers will still be good.

Similarly, taking the theivery and stealth skills will make you feel rogue-ish. And, well-chosen magic items can round off many less standard character designs, particularly if there is a certain "magic trick" that is the magey part of your character concept.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I've always thought that "fewer base classes, the better." But in 4e, I think this is not the case. Classes are very specific now, but I think the bredth of types won't come from combining classes, but by creating options within the umbrellas; i.e., have more base classes to choose from in the Roles and Power Sources. For example, if we have a variety of options that fill out the Defender (Fighter, Paladin, Swordmage, etc.), there may be less need for multiclassing, as the concept (say, a warrior with magical prowess) is better served by a new base class rather than shoehorning a multiclass combination into that role.

I think this is exactly what you'll be seeing.

 

[dimonic]

I'm torn about all this.

I've always thought that "fewer base classes, the better." But in 4e, I think this is not the case. Classes are very specific now, but I think the bredth of types won't come from combining classes, but by creating options within the umbrellas; i.e., have more base classes to choose from in the Roles and Power Sources. For example, if we have a variety of options that fill out the Defender (Fighter, Paladin, Swordmage, etc.), there may be less need for multiclassing, as the concept (say, a warrior with magical prowess) is better served by a new base class rather than shoehorning a multiclass combination into that role.

Interestingly, I think that more than before, more players will play from more core classes. The 3e Player's Handbook introduced such a great array of "cover all the bases" classes that it was not only possible to play using only the PH1 classes as "core", but I think the vast majority of players did just that, and most if not all PrCs were designed to appeal to the PH1 core classes. It was very late in the 3e game that (to me) really appealing alternative core classes were designed - the Knight is one example.

Since the new PH omits the Barbarian, Bard, Druid and Sorcerer, having so many archetypal classes presumably for the PH2 will make the PH2 as a whole much more mainstream - in the same way that the Warlock and Warlord will be very mainstream because they are in PH1.

Therefore, all these classes (and more) will be more "core", and other supplements will have much more designed for them as a result.

 

[Jhamin]

But then, I like a defined class over a classless system. I've never seen a classless system that didn't boil down to 'Everyone is good at everything that matters'.

And is that such a bad thing? In most fiction with an ensamble cast you are divided into "competent" (PCs) and "not as good, but come in handy once in a while" (NPCs/Hirelings).

Classes with rigidly defined roles are a major issue for me. (I know, I know I'm playing the wrong game) It leads to situations where stealth is impossible because the fighter didn't buy move silently or only the rogue can fight on a rocking ship because they were the only ones with the balance skill or where no one can convince the guards not to arrest you because the "social guy" is at negative HP.


I think a system where everyone can take a hit, everyone is athletic enough to navigate the wacky adventure environment, everyone can deal damage, and everyone is able to contribute to the social encounters is a *good* system.
Each character needs a place to shine, but not dying when the big bad uses his cool power or being able to get to the adventure should not be that place.

 

[Propheous_D]

I personally LOVE this new way of doing things. I think it allows you to have flavour and abilities form another class. MOSTLY though it makes Paragon Paths very interesting. Sure there will be paragon paths for individual classes, but what about Paragon Paths for multiclass characters?

Arcane Trickster - Requires Sneak Attack and Magic Missile
Arcane Archer - Requires Quarry and Magic Missile
Mystic Theurge - Requires Magic Missile and Holy Word

I think that in the beginning till you reach 10th level you will be focusing more on your primary class, but I think that Paragon level is were you will start to be able to even off the multiclassing. If we think about this it was basically true of original multi-classing. You never really reached your stride till about 10th level really in 3E because you were limited to the abilities you gained in the other classes.

 

[Green Knight]

Ah, yes, you are quite right. So it is even better - certainly more than dabbling in a second class.

I didn't like the rules at first, but they're slowly starting to grow on me. I'm looking at some spell pages released a while back, for instance, and I'm just amazed at the thought of a Fighter casting Prismatic Beams or Wall of Ice. Picture the scene. The Fighter throws up a wall 12 squares long, splitting up the oncoming horde of monsters, and inflicting 2d6+Int modifier to any monsters adjacent to the squares the wall occupies. The wall splits them up, so for a round or two the party can wail away at half of them while the other half has to run around the wall. And to top it all off, the Fighter's Combat Challenge may very well apply to every single monster damaged by that Wall of Ice spell. So instead of one monster getting marked per attack, and suffering a -2 penalty when they attack someone other then the Fighter, pretty much EVERY monster suffers that effect. The Fighter can really make things worse for the monsters on the other side of the wall by hanging out around the center of the wall, forcing them to cover even more ground to get to him. Pretty amazing.

Then there're some of the Encounter Powers. Like Prismatic Burst, for instance. That would be fantastic in the hands of a Fighter. A Burst 2 radius within 20 squares, so a hell of a range, and capable of catching numerous targets (once again potentially nailing them all with Combat Challenge). 3d6 + Intelligence modifier damage and the targets are blinded. And the best part? It's Radiant damage. Doubt the Fighter would get that otherwise, so he'd suddenly be a lot more lethal against undead and the like. Can you imagine a Fighter running around throwing down a Prismatic Burst in every fight?

Add to that Rituals, and a multiclass combo like the gish isn't looking to bad at all.

 

[mmu1]

I see a lot of people assuming that the 11th level Paragon path multi-classing approach is the answer to those complaining about how limited the MC system seems so far...

I think that's a big assumption to make - especially since, based on what we've seen of the Paragon paths, they're IIRC not filled with abilities that are especially useful to classes other than the one they're written for.

Since it seems really unlikely they wrote an alternate version of every Paragon path to be used for multi-classing, my guess is that you'll simply be able to take a MC feat and then use a path meant for a different class... which will be near-useless, unless you also invest as much as you can into the MC power-swap feats. Even then, I don't think it'll let you move far beyond dabbling in a class.

(And on a side note, I really don't see how anyone can call this system anything but dabbling. It might "fix" the issue with magic abilities gained through multiclassing, but in the end, it gives you so much less than in any other edition - and at higher cost)

 

[drjones]

This all points to a system where character customization is gained more through feat and class selection than multiclassing. I think this is good for balance, anyone who posts here is probably capable of making truly monstrous 3.5 characters that made the rest of the party baggage. With this approach that should be less common since they will have some remote chance of playtesting most combos while still having min/maxing room in feat selection, ability scores etc. Does this mean you have less combos available? Yes.

Is that the end of the world? No.

 

[Green Knight]

I see a lot of people assuming that the 11th level Paragon path multi-classing approach is the answer to those complaining about how limited the MC system seems so far...

I think that's a big assumption to make - especially since, based on what we've seen of the Paragon paths, they're IIRC not filled with abilities that are especially useful to classes other than the one they're written for.

Since it seems really unlikely they wrote an alternate version of every Paragon path to be used for multi-classing, my guess is that you'll simply be able to take a MC feat and then use a path meant for a different class... which will be near-useless, unless you also invest as much as you can into the MC power-swap feats. Even then, I don't think it'll let you move far beyond dabbling in a class.

If you reread the article on Paragon Paths, you'll notice that it says the following:

(Alternatively if you wish, you can also select powers from a second class in place of a paragon path. That’s described in the information on multiclassing, and something we’ll cover in a future preview article.)

And it says the following in the article on multiclassing.

At 11th level, you can choose to forgo your paragon path in order to further specialize in a second class.

In other words, you can take a Paragon Path, or... you can instead multiclass.