Excerpt: Multiclassing (merged)

[Andur]

Pinotage, I am very confused by what you think multiclassing is exactly. You have yet to define it in any way which would make 3.x more acceptable than 4e.

The biggest thing is there really is no such thing as multiclassing as far as the characters are concerned. They simply have the ability to do certain things.

I think what many people are confusing is multiclassing with multiROLING. WotC clearly want people to choose a role (Defender, Leader, Controller, Striker) and then stick with that role. Choosing different CLASSES should help characters define that role, augment that role, or situationally fill in for another role.

Roles are mechanics, Classes are flavour. Changing of the flavours should have little impact on the mechanics.

On a slightly different topic, for those of you that thing a bullet list implies priorities please tell us about the following wall:

1) The wall is red.
2) The wall is brick.
3) The wall is 5' high.

Does that mean the wall being 5' high is less important than the wall being red?

 

[Mirtek]

Take the Student of the Sword feat, for instance. If there are a limited number of attack bonus boosting feats--even if many of them are better than Student of the Sword, it's still an obvious power choice for a warrior type. And no matter how often the designers pretend that healing word 1/day is as good as +1 to hit, there are a lot of characters for whom the +1 to hit is going to be a lot better. (Marking, etc, we'll wait and see on, but +1 to hit is an obvious and obviously useful benefit).

Student of the Sword
Str 13
Fighter: skill training, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter

So is the +1 to attack also limited to 1/encounter or is only the mark limited and the +1 is permanent?

To me the "and" says that both are 1/day, otherwise they would have put a "," between them instead of an "and"

 

[Mighty Veil]

I'm a bit disappointed with 4e m/c. Maybe it plays better than it reads in the preview.

 

[matthewseidl]

Voss-
EDIT: On a related thought, I was very, very skeptical about how multiclassing would play out months ago, when there was some discussion about how much those rules were in flux during playtesting. I see now why. And, with respect to Ari, I think that his group all choosing *not* to multiclass (beyond dabbling, anyway) might well be influenced by mechanics as much as "concept." If I consider my options at level up, and realize that multiclassing is suboptimal, I have a mechanical reason not to do it. I think that sucks.

Having played in Ari's group before, and knowing most of the current players well, let me say that at least one of the payers in that group never let mechanics get in the way of concept. He was famous for making terrible characters, mostly multi-classed to death (a few rogue levels, a few bard levels, maybe a dip into Sorc, then add in a prc, etc). If he didn't multi, its because he saw things he liked in a single class, not because he was worried about being weaker.

 

[FadedC]

Lastly, to me my biggest peave with it right now is that the multi classing feats don't seem to balance with each other.

Compare the ranger one with the rogue.

Ranger: I can mark a target, and a do a permanent extra d6 of damage to it the entire combat.

Those two aren't even close. In fact, I think the ranger's is the strongest one on the table. Its prereqs are easy to make as you can have one or the other. It lasts for a long time, and it works with anyone, whether its magic missile or a sword blow.

Take the cleric for example. When the other multi class abilities grant per encounter abilities, this one gives you a once per day. Once per day is such a HUGE gap, that's the difference between an ability being used 2-6 times a day or once. Further, the cleric can normally gives his party a big bonus to healing after combat when they are using surges. This guy can't do any of that.

Why couldn't the feat provide a 2/day healing? I mean, the cleric can use healing word twice per encounter, so why not bump it to twice per day?

I agree with you on the ranger vs. rogue thing and I wonder if there isn't something we are missing in the shortened text. More importantly why wouldn't every striker class multiclass to ranger to get the hunter's quarry if it does in fact last the whole fight? Imagine how good that would be against solo monsters. Seems way too strong for a feat. But if it only works for 1 round, then it's pretty weak.

I don't agree about the cleric though. This is ability that gives what is essentially an extra second wind, usable as a minor action with gives extra hit points and can be used on others. People consider the dwarf ability to be the a huge deal, and this is way better. Making it only usable once a day is the only way to balance it. If it was usable more often every defender would take it to heal themselves in combat repeatedly as a minor action.

 

[Ximenes088]

Compare the ranger one with the rogue.

Ranger training presumably picks Nature or Dungeoneering as trained skills and gains Quarry 1/encounter. Rogue training presumably gets Thievery _and_ Stealth and gains Sneak Attack 1/encounter. Rogues get two auto-trained skills whereas rangers only get one; perforce, rogue training must be balanced elsewhere.

 

[Propheous_D]

I agree with you on the ranger vs. rogue thing and I wonder if there isn't something we are missing in the shortened text. More importantly why wouldn't every striker class multiclass to ranger to get the hunter's quarry if it does in fact last the whole fight? Imagine how good that would be against solo monsters. Seems way too strong for a feat. But if it only works for 1 round, then it's pretty weak.

It would only be very powerful against solo or maybe elite encounters. The majority of encounters will involve a minimum of 4 monsters, and most likley much more then that. So being able to use the ability on one monster once per encounter is substancial but not broken IMO.

 

[jaldaen]

Not certain this has been mentioned, but the Multiclassing Table is fixed.

Feat Prerequisites
Novice Power Any class-specific multiclass, 4th level
Acolyte Power Any class-specific multiclass, 8th level
Adept Power Any class-specific multiclass, 10th level

 

[SpydersWebbing]

The concept? It's cool. It keeps me from seeing a binder/warlock/hellfire adept(?) ever again. Oh God... what a travesty it did to monsters. I'll definitely use the concept.

The execution....not so much. The feats don't look very balanced at the moment. I'd have to see the full rules to understand more, but if it looks then how it does now, then I'll just make up my own feats.

It's make believe. I don't have to do everything they say to do.

 

[jaldaen]

I wonder if all the 1/encounter abilities that have ongoing effects (Divine Challenge) under normal circumstances only last 1 round... it would "balance" them with the "one-shot" (Sneak Attack) multiclass powers.