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D&D General Explain Bounded Accuracy to Me (As if I Was Five)

The notion of "genuinely more powerful" is, as I posted upthread, obscurantist.
It's not. Either you beat mechanically the same foe or you don't. I have played a lot of 4e, and I never felt powerful when killing minions. It felt like GM has set up these prop balloon monsters for us to kill. Perhaps you can ignore the feeling generated by the mechanics, I sure can't, and I know I am not remotely alone in this.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Nothing what you said here has to do with bounded or unbounded accuracy. It is just that with bounded you don't need to such different versions of the monsters for the fame to function, but you still could.

<snip>

It is not really plausible in any case. And why does it matter? 16th level characters would never fight a 8th level normal ogre in 4e anyway. And if they for some reason would, perhaps even side by side with a 16th level minion ogre, the any illusion that these are somehow the same thing would be instantly broken.
I don't know what your claim about plausibility is based on. I have experienced the progression from 1st to 8th to 15th level in 4e, and how this supports the fiction of growing PC power over those levels. Compressing the attack and defence numbers would change this. You would need to compensate elsewhere, as 5e does (ie in damage numbers). But what does the actual design of this look like?
 

pemerton

Legend
It's not. Either you beat mechanically the same foe or you don't. I have played a lot of 4e, and I never felt powerful when killing minions. It felt like GM has set up these prop balloon monsters for us to kill. Perhaps you can ignore the feeling generated by the mechanics, I sure can't, and I know I am not remotely alone in this.
It's just maths. If the GM says double all your damage dice, then you will win more easily. Glossing that instruction with because you're wearing a Girdle of Giant Strength (Cook/Marsh Expert version) doesn't suddenly make it "genuine".

I know that the players in my 4e game felt that their PCs were more powerful when they were fighting Hobgoblin phalanxes, rather than individual Hobgoblins, because they said as much. They noticed the difference in the fiction.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
But it's not confused. It's very deliberate.

A 4e standard creature is the mechanical equivalent (in general) of four minions. So the PC who fought one standard Ogre at upper Heroic tier can expect to face four of those Ogres, statted as minions, at mid Paragon tier.

If, mechanically, the intention is to represent this without changing Ogre stat blocks, then you need some other device to make the PC about four times more effective vs the Ogre than they were 8 levels ago. The approach taken in 5e is increased to hit bonus (vs the Ogre's constant AC) and increased damage (via higher level spells, or multiple attacks, plus a bit of stat and feat-based growth).

I don't know of any a priori argument that this will produce better game play. And given what I read about 5e combats, my impression is that 4e does a better job of producing compelling game play in the combat sphere than does 5e.
Precisely. Keeping mechanical representation rigidly fixed, and simply hoping that changes in player stats will by happenstance result in the monster transitioning from "terrifying threat" to "minor annoyance"....just doesn't really get the job done. It's not that there isn't a theoretical way for it to happen, I'm sure someone could come up with some (dare I say it) white room arguments to the contrary. But in practice, it's just...not how 5e ends up playing.

I suspect this is, at least in part, because HP has to bear effectively the whole burden of representing monster scaling, given AC is damn-near static once you get to ~20, but damage output scales in a pretty chunky, uneven fashion and much, much more slowly than HP. Creatures at the absolute bottom end of the progression (e.g. CR 1 or less) may be usable aplenty, but once you get to CR 4 or so, things plateau so much that it's just too much work to use lots of those monsters. Typical HP for a CR 4 creature is well over 100 (reportedly in the 116-130 range), and even a well-equipped high-level Fighter simply can't cleave through that in one attack.

Even if we assume a Fighter has a +3 weapon, +11 attack bonus, 4 attacks per attack, and hits with every one of those four attacks (which will be much higher than actual expected damage output, even accounting for crits), that's at best 8d6+32 = 60. It takes pulling out all the stops to potentially take out a CR4 creature in a single hit as a level 20 Fighter, which everyone always tells me is the king of damage and should be absolutely destroying everything. Heck, even throwing in GWM without any accuracy penalty (which would definitely be an exaggeration of damage), that's still only 100 total damage--a Fighter who lands every single GWM attack cannot consistently kill a CR 4 creature in one round.

So we're stuck having to work with pretty much CR1 and CR2 creatures exclusively if we want anything like "minions," and that roundly interferes with the "this enemy, who was once a deadly danger, is now barely chump change." Further, typical damage is in the 27-32 range, meaning ~29.5 damage on a hit. Even if we assume a low but moderate hit rate (typical attack bonus is +5, player AC is rarely higher than about 18 without a shield, so 40% is on the low end of reasonable), a swarm of, say, six of these creatures is going to get around 71 damage in on the first round, and probably another 30-40 on the second....when a 20th-level Fighter, we'll assume maxed Con, only has about 15+11x19 = 224 HP. So, despite this being only a quite "small" group of "weak" creatures, going up against one of the allegedly strongest characters around...you're still looking at taking a major beating (albeit possibly distributed across the party) and not actually cleaving through these things quickly at all.
 


Or you could have played the adventures or looked at Rogue's Gallery that made it quite clear that Gygax was an extremely Monty Haul DM with PCs with crazy high stats who railed against those who were even more Monty Haul and pcs with higher stats than his table's PCs.

There's a Ring of Air Elemental Command in L1 as an example, one of the most "expensive" magic items in DMG, an adventure for level 2-4 PCs. Robilar, a Fighter, solo'd Temple of Elemental Evil with a Ring of Invisibility, Regeneration, a belt of giant strength, and a few other fantastic items.
Gygax knew how to run a good game. Magic items shouldn't be gatekept behind levels; give your players something legendary and then make it a source of conflict for them. This has always made my games a lot more enjoyable on both sides of the table.
 


It's not. Either you beat mechanically the same foe or you don't. I have played a lot of 4e, and I never felt powerful when killing minions. It felt like GM has set up these prop balloon monsters for us to kill. Perhaps you can ignore the feeling generated by the mechanics, I sure can't, and I know I am not remotely alone in this.
Minions are used best when treated as "creature traps." You turn the corner and the minion skeleton makes a surprise attack against you. You strike back, destroying it. Literally just a trap but with a monster involved instead.

Using minions for waves of enemies has not worked in my campaigns; using them for alpha strikes, ambushes, and so on has.
 

pemerton

Legend
Precisely. Keeping mechanical representation rigidly fixed, and simply hoping that changes in player stats will by happenstance result in the monster transitioning from "terrifying threat" to "minor annoyance"....just doesn't really get the job done. It's not that there isn't a theoretical way for it to happen, I'm sure someone could come up with some (dare I say it) white room arguments to the contrary. But in practice, it's just...not how 5e ends up playing.

I suspect this is, at least in part, because HP has to bear effectively the whole burden of representing monster scaling
Agreed. This is what I've said upthread. As you say, maybe in principle there is a working mathematical solution, but I've not seen it.
 

pemerton

Legend
How? You are never actually using the full variance, as monsters always get to changed to be close your level so that the extremes of the scale do not come into play.
Because the full variance is used over time. And you also, at least relative to my experience, seem to be downplaying the variance in play at any given level. A 5th level PC still encounter 3rd level creatures. An 8th level PC encounters both 6th and 12th level creatures. Etc.

The scaling is what generates the working fiction of all this. An 8-level gap between standard and minion roughly corresponds to the level range of creatures in play at any given level. (From around L-2 up to say L+4.)
 

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