Extreme self-preservation

[Tobold]

I am playing at a role-playing club, where we are currently running a long event which is basically a series of dungeon crawls with many players and multiple DMs. Only rule, players need to be back at base by the end of the session. Then the next session can be a different mix of players with a different DM. The format doesn't exactly inspire loyalty and team spirit, but lately I've been more and more running into extreme cases of self-preservation being players biggest concern. e.g. player A moves away from the monster and moves behind player B's character, hoping that the monster is attacking B rather than A; then B does basically the same thing, moving behind A, and player A starts shouting at player B. Today I was a player, playing a barbarian, we got into a fight, and at the end of the first round I found myself alone in the room with all the monsters, every other player in the group had moved out of the room and was hiding behind a corner or something.

Okay, not very nice, but as a player I can still live with that. However I'm going to be DM in that campaign too, and I was wondering how I should handle it as a DM. Should I have the monsters pursue the fleeing characters, as to the monster they sure look weaker than the tank guy in front? Should I have other monsters sneak up from behind? Should I rule differently than my fellow DMs on rogues attacking with advantage from hiding (the rule says it's DM's discretion whether shooting around a corner breaks hiding or not, and I'l inclined to break hiding if the monster knows somebody is behind that corner). How do you handle players that play their characters as extreme cowards rather than heroes? I mean, one player like that could be a fun running gag, but if they all do it, it gets kind of annoying fast.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

There should be some kind of backstory that ties all the PCs together. For example, they are all employed by the local Adveturer’s Guild and, as co-workers, are tasked to clear out the dungeons around the town home base.

Running with that theme, have an NPC foreman overseeing the operation and if PCs exhibit a lack of bravery (code for extreme self-preservation) then their pay gets docked.

That and having evil assassins sneaking up from behind the party ought to square things away.

 

[iserith]

There should be some kind of backstory that ties all the PCs together. For example, they are all employed by the local Adveturer’s Guild and, as co-workers, are tasked to clear out the dungeons around the town home base.

Agreed. Party cohesion seems lacking more than anything and having an open conversation with the group about it at the start of your next session might be the way to go. Perhaps you frame it as a way to be more effective as a party in achieving goals (or earning XP or whatever) and a way to help create a more exciting, memorable tale. For my part, I include a couple of different things in my Table and/or Character Creation Rules that help with this:

"Your characters all know each other, have history together that we will flesh out, and trust each other at least enough to go on dangerous adventures together. They don't have to be best friends, but they've got each other's backs. Establish your character ties accordingly."

"When you post your character, include a brief description of an adventure you undertook with at least two other PCs previously (no longer than a Tweet, please)."

This goes a long way in my experience to making sure the players and therefore their characters work together more easily. I'm not sure you can do the same thing give the club's rules, but you might encourage the players to establish something like this at the start of play during the session. A series of carefully-framed questions may be a good technique for getting some useful responses from the players. This gives them some additional context and relationships they can draw on during play. "Now I have a reason to not abandon the barbarian - he had my back once and I owe him."

I'm not convinced changing up the monster tactics is necessarily the solution here. But it doesn't really cost you anything to try it out.

 

[Dausuul]

Normally I would say to talk this out with the players, try to resolve it, and (if all else fails) kick some of them to the curb. But I guess your ability to do that here is limited.

So... avoid AoE effects. Instead, favor ambush monsters and skirmishers, stuff that prowls around the edges of the battle picking off stragglers. Use abilities that push them to help each other (e.g., sleep effects that require an ally to wake you up). Make sure the players are aware that this is the kind of dungeon they are walking into: If they do not hang together, they will certainly hang separately.

As for trying to duck behind each other... that seems like a case study in stupid. Aren't they provoking OAs every time they pull that move? They're really willing to eat that extra damage in hopes that the monster will go after someone else? If so, the solution is simple: Don't have the monster go after someone else. The typical monster has a fairly good grasp on the concept of object permanence. It understands that just because an enemy has ducked behind another enemy, doesn't mean the first enemy has ceased to exist.

One thing I would not do, however, is mess with the rogue's ability to hide-and-snipe. That's a key feature of the class, and it's how rogues are meant to play. The rogue should be hiding and dodging and striking from the edges of battle. It's when fighters and barbarians are trying to do the same thing that you have a problem.

 

[Harzel]

Mostly +1 to what @iserith said. I'll throw in a few more thoughts.

Ask yourself two questions: 1) What do the players want? 2) In current circumstances, what is the most effective way for them to get those things?

It sounds like players are hyper-concerned about PC survival. Are there reasons for that? Do dead characters get resurrected? Is it difficult for a player to introduce a replacement PC if one is lost?

Are the players motivated by leveling / XP? If so, how is that handled? Bonus XP for PCs that contribute more could be a motivator.

 

[ad_hoc]

Well D&D only works as a cooperative game.

I think the premise was flawed from the start. It might be worth it to talk to the organizers and bring about some new guidelines. Something along the lines of the entire group succeeds or everyone dies.

For characters who run away like that they should be treated the same way deserters in an army are treated. That's what they are doing. They signed up to go into battle and then ran away to let their comrades die.

tl;dr - anyone who does that dies.

 

[smbakeresq]

The situation you describe is essentially the paradox of thrift. The paradox in layman’s terms is if everyone tries to save money, economic growth slows down so everyone gets poorer by saving,not richer.

In D&D, if everyone plays to not to die then no one lives. HP is a resource that must be spent to accomplish goals. While the group will almost never have more HP then the monsters, they have abilities that if used will burn the monsters HP at a much higher rate and replace the PC HP.

TBH I hate playing with players that play like gutless Stay Pufft Marshmallow Men*, get in there and mix it up and if you go out in a blaze then the Bards will write epic poetry about you.


* please don’t use language like that here, even with asterisks, or simeone will be forced to edit your post again, and give you an infraction.

 

[Oofta]

For the rogue question, I rule that they have to put some effort into hiding. If the enemy is paying attention to a corridor and the rogue pops out they are seen. Hidden isn't magic and doesn't grant invisibility. On the other hand if the enemy is distracted and looking in a different direction it works, the first time. After that be expected to move to a different position.

As others have said, what about opp attacks? Maybe ya'll need party cohesion. If you want to force it, have a review of actions in combat by the supervisor when they return to base. If someone ran away, they don't get a share of the treasure.

I also have assassins or reinforcements come from behind on a pretty regular basis.

Or, of course, you could just get together and have a discussion around this. Even if it's a larger group I find it hard to believe you're the only one with the issue.

 

[Ancalagon]

Ok.

So the characters are rational beings, unwilling to take on a monster in a fair fight. Good, that's good roleplaying. Why on earth would someone try to fight a monster in a fair fight?! You might die!

The thing to do is to retreat, then lure it in an ambush where you massacre it without mercy. The *best* fight is one where your foe doesn't even have a chance to shoot back. This isn't a soccer game, this is WAR.

So all you need to do now is work out on better retreats, and also better scouting. Embrace your party's attitude, work with it. Be a rat bastard!

 

[smbakeresq]

The monster also intelligence and wisdom scores and sometimes less concrete things like cunning that would prevent it from being lured. An exceptional boss would spy on the party and know that they can be easily tricked into a retreat which puts them in even greater danger.


The bigger issue is I am sure some of those of PC have low or lowish wisdom and intelligence scores and certainly different motivations and knowledge then the player behind them has. It seems the players are acting on their meta knowledge of the game and the DM, something the PC wouldn’t do. That’s not role playing, that’s playing like a video game, retreating to safety secure in the knowledge that the creature won’t respawn or move beyond its area.