Facing demon lords at full strength

[Luz]

Has anyone fought a demon lord, perhaps one from Mordenkainen's Tome of foes or Out of the Abyss, at full power? I imagine it would take a party of high level, if not max level, players to even survive such a battle, much less triumph.

I haven't run a 5e demon lord against my group yet, but they're currently in Vault of the Drow with plans to move onto Q1 after, so a confrontation with Lolth is inevitable. They will be around 18th-20th level by then, so I'll likely use this version of Lolth or a tweaked variation of it.

In my experience, a solo demon lord has never stood much of a chance against a very high level party (15th and up) in any edition of D&D - it's not exclusively a 5e issue. Rather than debate the system or stat block tho, I think it behooves any DM to customize the encounter to properly challenge the PCs. Every party has its strengths and weaknesses, so the DM can use that knowledge to create boss fights that exploit both without the BBEG coming across as omniscient. Its a balancing act that can really challenge a DM's creative output - whether it means adding mooks, terrain, magical effects, just beefing up the boss (demon lord, in this case), or a combination of some or all of those things - but its ultimately more rewarding (and more fun) for everyone at the table.

 

[generic]

I haven't run a 5e demon lord against my group yet, but they're currently in Vault of the Drow with plans to move onto Q1 after, so a confrontation with Lolth is inevitable. They will be around 18th-20th level by then, so I'll likely use this version of Lolth or a tweaked variation of it.

In my experience, a solo demon lord has never stood much of a chance against a very high level party (15th and up) in any edition of D&D - it's not exclusively a 5e issue. Rather than debate the system or stat block tho, I think it behooves any DM to customize the encounter to properly challenge the PCs. Every party has its strengths and weaknesses, so the DM can use that knowledge to create boss fights that exploit both without the BBEG coming across as omniscient. Its a balancing act that can really challenge a DM's creative output - whether it means adding mooks, terrain, magical effects, just beefing up the boss (demon lord, in this case), or a combination of some or all of those things - but its ultimately more rewarding (and more fun) for everyone at the table.

I suggest that you look over this version of Lolth:

View attachment Updated_Demon_Lords_Lolth_the_Demon_Queen_of_Spiders.pdf

It's CR 34!

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

They just don't do enough damage solo. If they devote all legendary actions to extra attacks and hit on every attack, you're looking at a range of 100 - 140 damage.

Really? I guess it depends on the demon. We fought Yenoghu and in the first round of combat it had, essentially, nine attacks (at some high number, +16 if I remember right). We counted up something like 176 points of damage. In that same round we did just under 100 points, almost of which was from the paladin with Dawnbringer making a critical hit. Damage immunity meant my favourite attacking spell, animate objects, was useless.

We trapped the demon in a wall of force becase we just couldn't hit it or damage it, and it teleported out.

On the other hand, Yenoghu is a melee monster, literally. If we had someone with the hit points to tank it then we might have had some flying archers being efective. As it was, we just couldn't win the HP-HP numbers game.

 

[ThePlanarDM]

Yeenogu can do the following each round if he puts all his energy into attacking:

Attack action: 3 flail attacks, each 1d12+9. One of those 3 is likely to deal an extra 2d12 damage.

3 Legendary Actions: 3 more flail attacks, no possibility for extra damage.

If he's in his lair, he can create a spike that does 6d8.

So 8d12+54 + 6d8. A base range of 70 - 198 and and average damage of 133, assuming (and this is actually not a terrible assumption) all his damage abilities hit. His dice do less damage than his strength mod, so crits aren't going to make him very swingy either.

So not terrible. But I just made a level 8 barbarian for a one shot the other day. No magic items or helpful spells cast on him at all. He had 92 hit points, bear totem and sentinel. He'll survive a full 1.5 rounds against Yeenogu by himself.

Now granted Yeenogu has 3 abilities that will give PCs effect, one a restrain, one a paralyze, and one a confusion ability. But purely on damage, a little underwhelming for a demon lord.

What I wish they all had was a way to do damage to everyone. This would go a long way to solving the PC whack-a-mole problem that monsters often face.

 

[Seramus]

Depends on the Demon Lord. The ones of average intelligence tend to get crushed by the party. The ones of high intelligence tend to crush the party. Understanding and utilizing good tactics can make a HUGE difference.

Demogorgon gets an honorable mention even though he "only" has 20 Intelligence, since his tactics specifically say he uses overwhelming force early and often.

 

[Luz]

I suggest that you look over this version of Lolth:

View attachment 105501

It's CR 34!

Right, thanks for reminding me about that! I bought that article from DMs Guild a few months ago, it's very good. I actually prefer that version of Lolth over the one I posted - she has some more interesting attack options and has both cleric and wizard spellcasting abilities (as per her AD&D original stats). I like her poison breath also. The limited magic immunity (she has it in both versions) might cripple the party spellcasters too much, I may have to adjust that a bit.

 

[generic]

Right, thanks for reminding me about that! I bought that article from DMs Guild a few months ago, it's very good. I actually prefer that version of Lolth over the one I posted - she has some more interesting attack options and has both cleric and wizard spellcasting abilities (as per her AD&D original stats). I like her poison breath also. The limited magic immunity (she has it in both versions) might cripple the party spellcasters too much, I may have to adjust that a bit.

I agree. In addition, her ability to cast Planar Ally at will (allowing her to summon a Yochlol or other demon every single turn) is pretty potent.

 

[Luz]

I agree. In addition, her ability to cast Planar Ally at will (allowing her to summon a Yochlol or other demon every single turn) is pretty potent.

Yeah, especially when you consider her Summon Demons legendary action (which I like a lot). At-will planar ally is a little overkill and would make things both hopeless and tedious. Not a tactic I'd want to resort to.

With regards to her limited magic immunity, its a tough call with this particular group. They have four full casters: a bard, cleric, and a wizard who is toting a simulacrum of herself around - so they will chew through her legendary resistance fairly quickly and probably the limited magic immunity as well. And this is Lolth after all. So maybe reduce her limited magic immunity to 3/day, but include an option to deflect the spell back at the caster whenever she uses it, at the cost of two uses? Just playing with ideas atm.

EDIT: The party actually has five full casters...I forgot to mention the druid as well.

 

[ThePlanarDM]

Maybe the group finds out about her immunity and has to go on a quest to find some MacGuffin that can reduce or eliminate it?

 

[Draegn]

Rather than combat you could attempt to entrap the lord or lady with a binding contract. Be Iggwilv rather than a paladin.