Robbert Raets
Explorer
Someone said the Khanate would develop Wizards and Paladins, but aren't Sorcerers & Paladins more likely? They'd still be mainly LG (or NG), but with the Godsblood thing Charisma-based spellcasting and classes are more likely.
Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
Robbert Raets said:
Yep Scorcerers and Paladins (interesting mix) - but then if they've withdrawn then they'll only appear as mecenaries anyway so shouldn't matter too much.
Wizards I'd give to the descendents of the Stempans alongside their Clerics, Fighters, Rogues. The warring tribes of Cressia have Druids, Barbarians and Rangers along with a few wandering Skalds (Bards) - their culture is starting to sound Celt!.
Do the Deltane remain? if so in what capacity? and whats happening with all those Celestial dogs?
I like the 'Egypt' idea - a desert nation ruled by Liches (Mummi with high Int), with skeleton legions and Gnoll mummy in the tombs! Need to have gnolls (and call them Anubi) and Lizardfolk too. I'd probabaly describe the culture as LN and allow for Good Liche Clerics (Domains: Death, Undead, Law) who are able to summon Lammasu! - Clerics, Wizards, Fighters and Rangers as the main classes here
And what part should Ausel play in this scenario - the refugees are by now either absorbed into another culture or have established a new nation of Wizards and Dragons.
Those on Ausel live under Formian rule and are thus barred from involvement in the outside world.
scenario
An Anubi merchant ship is sent to Cressia in order to initiate trade the Cressians see a similarity between the gnolls and he Delatanes and so trade is accepted. A few Cressian and Stempa diplomats are sent to Anubi-land and are horrified to discover the dead walking the streets with impunity and when they return to Cressia trade is unilaterally cut. The enemies of Cressia take advantage of this and the next Anubi ship reaching Cressia is sunk just of the coast and its crew eaten by Sea serpents
The Anubi now prepare for war...
Robbert Raets
Explorer
Well, if Cressia has become fragmented, it's not very likely to form a combined front on anything; trade, diplomacy or warfare. Some communities may have sent diplomats to Ansi, but others are probably oblivious to the whole Undead/Mummies thing.
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
Robbert Raets said:
Yep exactly - the Anubi were trading with one of the many tribes. The point is they think the 'Cressians' have sunk their merchant ships and now come for revenge - and as far as they care all Cressians are the same.
(Come to think of it it might well have been Cressians - but a different tribe- that did sink the ship!)
So can this conflict reunite the warring tribes? or will the petty factions be torn apart by infighting and backstabbing!
Robbert Raets
Explorer
The Ansi attack probably drives back the bulk of the Cressian Remnants. The older and further inland cities will be overflowing with refugees, thus concentrating and unificating the Cressians once more.
s/LaSH
First Post
Tonguez said:
Not specifically - I was thinking more 'Who really built the pyramids?', which could make for some interesting scenarios.
Huh, everyone seems to like this idea.
Anyway, my idea for this egyptian place (which could well be called Anub or something similar) was that it wasn't necessarily populated exclusively by the dead; the rulers could be a new dynasty in an already flourishing land, humans from Ausel in all likelihood (although maybe no longer human), who've spent the past few centuries increasing legions of undead, uniting whatever equivalent of the 'upper and lower kingdoms' we have in this world, and maybe even developing the dracolich. After all, they've got the dragons and they've got the necromancy - and what's cooler than a dracolich?
However, the military would probably be largely undead - as would the labour forces. Undead can build entire cities in the deep desert without water, dig an aqueduct in that direction taking a hundred years, and suddenly you've got yourself an entire new city ready for irrigation and population - quite a boon for a civilisation once limited to a narrow strip of fertile land along a river.
I propose that Anub was largely a dwarven realm a thousand years ago. There is now maybe a 10% human component (Auselen and others), and another 20% gnolls (a desert tribal race, with a number of independant kingdoms along the coast). While there may be lizardfolk, they were created early on by Auselen and now serve as temple guards. And Anub has a unique form of cavalry: the hydra. It's like a war elephant but hungrier. Hydrae can be found in many lands these days, but only the Anub have domesticated them.
As for Ta'jinn: They might well have fixed their borders and started making themselves strong again. They rule a sizable region, well beyond the headwaters of the Heaven River, but to become strong you need people, people need food, and food requires water. Like it or not, the jinn find themselves masters of aqueducts and terraform their steppes into fertile fields. Most of the stempan engineers now live in Ta'jinn lands and think of themselves as native. Ta'jinn architecture is characterised by soaring towers and immense aqueducts. Their roads are a marvel of the age; they often run atop aqueducts, connecting settlements together, and these roads have periodic God Towers, whence griffins can land and rest.
The formian presence is most commonly felt in Ta'jinn and Anub, at least in those lands known to Cresia. The anthropologists sometimes drop hints at 'unification wars', and everyone (by which I mean sages and scholars and possibly the rulers of realms) knows that humanity has ten thousand years to unite their world under law. The trouble is, everyone thinks their own way is best, the formians can't make good on their threat, it doesn't matter because who's going to live that long, or some combination of the lot. Thus nobody has suggested political unions.
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
Scenario Revised - The Cressian Dark Ages
It struck me as I was taking my son to Kindergarten - its a thousand years since the Formian Invasion, the chaos has spread and begun to settle - Cressia is now ready for its Dark Ages!
1 Cressia After the fall Cressia splintered into a myriad of small tribes with petty Warlords (mainly Deltanes and Barbarians) rising and falling with great regluarity. A Thousand years has past however and the Formian Invasion is now legend and the Petty Warlords that arose in its wake now hailed as Heroes and 'Dragon' Slayers. The descendents of these Warlords have consolidated their territories and Cressia is now a patchwork of Tribal Nations lead by hereditary chieftains split evenly between Deltanes (Wolf-Rangers) and Druids. Barbarians have also risen to prominence amongst the Cressians and although Arcane magic is viewed with distaste wandering Bards are welcomed in most communities and have a degree of freedom to move between tribes/nations (carrying news and sometimes acting as spies)
2 Stempa Hidden along the Shoulder of the Mountains the High Citadels of Stempa are home to the Wizard-Kings who rose to power in the vacuum left after the fall of the Oracles. The Wizard-Kings are isolationists and arrogant and watch the world around them from the heights of their ivory towers
. In the Cities below the People of Stempa toil, Clerics invoke the names of distant gods, Rogues skulk in the urban shadows and Elite Fighters train to defend the Wizard-Kings from imaginary threats.
3 Ta'Jinn The Ta'Jinn Centaurs are rarely seen and for most common are legends from the ancient past. They have withdrawn and a feircely xenophobic. The Jinn (Elves perhaps?) whom they once ruled have mainly been absorbed into the Cressian or Stempa peoples although a few maintain seperate nations
The largest Jinn Nation is a Militant Theocracy of Paladins and Godsblood Scorcerer/GriffonRiders . Sworn to protect the World from Extraplanar threats and other vile evil. Clerics are also prominent here and strangely enough the Jinn have taken on the Monk class of the Ausel - Honing their minds body and spirit to face the Threat
4 Auselen Auselen is an accursed place for most - half the Island is a great Formian fortress enclosed walls, deep tunnels and great black towers - this is the realm of the Hive.
The other half of the Island is monster infested wilderness. If any humanoids survive here they are either twisted monstrosities themselves (giants maybe) or desperate wretches.
Anub - like s/Lash said
It struck me as I was taking my son to Kindergarten - its a thousand years since the Formian Invasion, the chaos has spread and begun to settle - Cressia is now ready for its Dark Ages!
1 Cressia After the fall Cressia splintered into a myriad of small tribes with petty Warlords (mainly Deltanes and Barbarians) rising and falling with great regluarity. A Thousand years has past however and the Formian Invasion is now legend and the Petty Warlords that arose in its wake now hailed as Heroes and 'Dragon' Slayers. The descendents of these Warlords have consolidated their territories and Cressia is now a patchwork of Tribal Nations lead by hereditary chieftains split evenly between Deltanes (Wolf-Rangers) and Druids. Barbarians have also risen to prominence amongst the Cressians and although Arcane magic is viewed with distaste wandering Bards are welcomed in most communities and have a degree of freedom to move between tribes/nations (carrying news and sometimes acting as spies)
2 Stempa Hidden along the Shoulder of the Mountains the High Citadels of Stempa are home to the Wizard-Kings who rose to power in the vacuum left after the fall of the Oracles. The Wizard-Kings are isolationists and arrogant and watch the world around them from the heights of their ivory towers
. In the Cities below the People of Stempa toil, Clerics invoke the names of distant gods, Rogues skulk in the urban shadows and Elite Fighters train to defend the Wizard-Kings from imaginary threats. 3 Ta'Jinn The Ta'Jinn Centaurs are rarely seen and for most common are legends from the ancient past. They have withdrawn and a feircely xenophobic. The Jinn (Elves perhaps?) whom they once ruled have mainly been absorbed into the Cressian or Stempa peoples although a few maintain seperate nations
The largest Jinn Nation is a Militant Theocracy of Paladins and Godsblood Scorcerer/GriffonRiders . Sworn to protect the World from Extraplanar threats and other vile evil. Clerics are also prominent here and strangely enough the Jinn have taken on the Monk class of the Ausel - Honing their minds body and spirit to face the Threat
4 Auselen Auselen is an accursed place for most - half the Island is a great Formian fortress enclosed walls, deep tunnels and great black towers - this is the realm of the Hive.
The other half of the Island is monster infested wilderness. If any humanoids survive here they are either twisted monstrosities themselves (giants maybe) or desperate wretches.
Anub - like s/Lash said
Last edited:
s/LaSH
First Post
Good point, Tonguez. Dark Ages weren't simply limited to the one we all know about. Even in terrestrial history, whole regions got beat down on occasion - empires fell, civilisation was diminished, but only over regions of a few thousand miles. Plenty of this happened around the Mediterranean.
So yep, we're probably going to see a cultural renaissance with this one.
Just one plea: let's stretch the length of this war out, shall we? It's not going to be a war of anihilation; more a war of gestures. Every couple of years someone could send a raiding part over and see what happens. Big wars come every generation or so. This should give us a good idea of tactics and allow for the creation of real defensive strategy.
So yep, we're probably going to see a cultural renaissance with this one.
Just one plea: let's stretch the length of this war out, shall we? It's not going to be a war of anihilation; more a war of gestures. Every couple of years someone could send a raiding part over and see what happens. Big wars come every generation or so. This should give us a good idea of tactics and allow for the creation of real defensive strategy.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
I would guess that the Centaurs are actually fairly well known in greater Cressia as would be the refugee Formians.
Large groups of these populations were isolated in the collapsed regions after the final climactic battles.
Dark ages generally involve a lot of cultural mixing, it's one of many reasons I prefer dark ages to Renaissances. I'm thinking that the larger Cressian portion of the world know features a very mixed distribution of Cressian, Ausel, Stempan, Ta'jinn, Formian, and newly encountered or developed native cultural, racial, and ethnic traits.
I firmly agree with the idea of a long and prolonged series of conflicts punctuated with more intense military/migrational campaigns much like the conflicts within Western Europe and against Magyars, Muslims, and Romans in the Post-Roman period.
Perhaps leading up to the sort of age redefining conflicts that would parallel Charlemagne's conquests in the Post-Roman period or the expansion of the Assyrian empire at the end of a period of larger cultural instability in the Easter Mediterranean and Fertile Crescent.
Perhaps...
Not too mention the expansion of new monstrous powers throughout the area. This could be termed the Age of Giants and Dragons.
Large groups of these populations were isolated in the collapsed regions after the final climactic battles.
Dark ages generally involve a lot of cultural mixing, it's one of many reasons I prefer dark ages to Renaissances. I'm thinking that the larger Cressian portion of the world know features a very mixed distribution of Cressian, Ausel, Stempan, Ta'jinn, Formian, and newly encountered or developed native cultural, racial, and ethnic traits.
I firmly agree with the idea of a long and prolonged series of conflicts punctuated with more intense military/migrational campaigns much like the conflicts within Western Europe and against Magyars, Muslims, and Romans in the Post-Roman period.
Perhaps leading up to the sort of age redefining conflicts that would parallel Charlemagne's conquests in the Post-Roman period or the expansion of the Assyrian empire at the end of a period of larger cultural instability in the Easter Mediterranean and Fertile Crescent.
Perhaps...
Not too mention the expansion of new monstrous powers throughout the area. This could be termed the Age of Giants and Dragons.
Interesting discussion gentlemen. Your story line has worked well so far. Not to pick on anyone, just a couple of monkey wrenches though, and some observations:
1.) Your development sequence of magic(k) is fictional historically off a bit when used in the "No deific/outside interference" view that this originally started.
Development should go:
sub-a.) Adepts.
a.) Sorcerers/Druids emerge as the dualistic principle evolves and splits the arcane-theism reference of Adepts.
b.) Wizards replace Sorcerers (more control, cultural advancements in literature make reading open to the masses, easier to teach, etc.), and Clerics slowly supplant Druids (spells that usually are more functional for large cities and societies which you have as soon as your town structure goes over 1k pop)
c.) Sorcerers emerge again after X-amount of time with Wizards tinkering with magic, etc. and using themselves as targets for their own experimental spells. Druids re-emerge as Nature type Clerics who help to enrich nature, bring civilization back in touch with it (to fight pollution, disasters, etc) and to help Pioneers settle lands.
finally d.) Adepts re-emerge within the common populace as folks learn to understand that magic = magic = magic, and the dualistic principle is a stepping stone to higher forms of arcane-theism.
This is a gross Over Simplification; I've written a paper and hosted discussions on the nature of "magic as technology and its evolution" in other media. I can include a link on a side-thread if anyone is interested.
As for the concepts of War, etc. that have evolved:
1.) Lots of good strategies and discussion on the low-power stuff. Perhaps return the discussion to that level as you're going to find that high-power techno-magocracies tend to cycle out of hand. Magic = Technology = morale/population growth/fighting ability, etc. The side with the better technology, given No outside random factors, will usually win any war; and even with AoGs thrown in (Acts of God as the insurance companies call it), they will still usually win at a higher cost. While I've seen good discussion on fitting in armies/civs as per our real world, folks have just barely touched on this other than making large monsters.
The insertion of the Borg (i.e. Formians) was interesting, but should happen further down the road, otherwise you're going to end up with a war-torn world.
2.) Solution to the Formians = Ausel, being a magic heavy country, will do one of two things, both of which result in what my players and I have come to call "Magic Intelligent Nukes". These are not Epic level spells of destruction, doing X-Google-d6.
Nukes = Intelligent Summoned creatures that can Teleport.
What will happen is one of the two events (or variations of them) which no other magic wielding country can protect itself against save to blanket its domain with Anti-magic (and eventually develop non-magic tech). Either:
a.) Ausel Scrys on the Formian Queen and succeeds. Once they know her location they Summon any Outsider type from the Summon Monster 5+ listings that can teleport at will (tpwoE is most common), buff it, and send it to attack and kill the Queen. In the meantime they send others inside to distract the Hive. If they can't get her on the first shot, they repeat. The Hive has no blocks against this. Once the Queen dies, its over.
b.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails. Instead they equip X number of Rogues with Scrolls of Summon Monster 5+ (Use Magic Device saves lives!) and send them into the complex.
c.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails. They don't care! They use the mages which are the highest in level (didn't someone post that they are powerful enough to become dragons?) which in turn Summon 5+ that have Teleport without Error, buff them, give them a Rough description (spies, Divination, Commune, whatever it takes) who then go in and do the job.
note: This tactic basically is used once Casters in a world have access to Summon 5+ and/or Gate. "I Gate in a Solar of Zeus, and then I ask it to go destroy the infidels of city X which has attacked us!" These creatures don't have to focus on the armies of the bad guys, they can take out leaders, destroy industries, ruin crops on massive levels, or yeah, annihilate armies.
Example: In one of my home campaigns we just had a fleet of 30 warships sunk by one 17th level Wizard. He used Summons to bring in enough Water elementals by himself that he (the most powerful mage in this low-magic/power world) destroyed the whole fleet within rounds and still had time to drown the sailors!
What stops Magic Nukes? The same as in the real world: mutual agreement pacts and treaties. We both know we could "Gate" the world to pieces, but do we want to? Is it worth the risks? Plus if only a select few hold the power there is the "7th Bullet" paradox: If SummonerA just hit our cities, is he weak enough for SummonerB to kill or not; does he have more spells or power?
Eventually although one of the cultures will expand beyond its environmental niche and one of two things must occur: a.) Transport Tech becomes supreme and they leave the continent/world/universe they are in (Gates, T-port, etc) or b.) Weaponry Tech becomes supreme and they use it in a risk-weighed attack on their opponents (this usually only occurs with no social collapse in cultures that are bonded in a form of government with no dissent on any level, or dissent so minor that all in power agree on the changes needed).
Sorry, would have spoken up sooner but just found this thread.
1.) Your development sequence of magic(k) is fictional historically off a bit when used in the "No deific/outside interference" view that this originally started.
Development should go:
sub-a.) Adepts.
a.) Sorcerers/Druids emerge as the dualistic principle evolves and splits the arcane-theism reference of Adepts.
b.) Wizards replace Sorcerers (more control, cultural advancements in literature make reading open to the masses, easier to teach, etc.), and Clerics slowly supplant Druids (spells that usually are more functional for large cities and societies which you have as soon as your town structure goes over 1k pop)
c.) Sorcerers emerge again after X-amount of time with Wizards tinkering with magic, etc. and using themselves as targets for their own experimental spells. Druids re-emerge as Nature type Clerics who help to enrich nature, bring civilization back in touch with it (to fight pollution, disasters, etc) and to help Pioneers settle lands.
finally d.) Adepts re-emerge within the common populace as folks learn to understand that magic = magic = magic, and the dualistic principle is a stepping stone to higher forms of arcane-theism.
This is a gross Over Simplification; I've written a paper and hosted discussions on the nature of "magic as technology and its evolution" in other media. I can include a link on a side-thread if anyone is interested.
As for the concepts of War, etc. that have evolved:
1.) Lots of good strategies and discussion on the low-power stuff. Perhaps return the discussion to that level as you're going to find that high-power techno-magocracies tend to cycle out of hand. Magic = Technology = morale/population growth/fighting ability, etc. The side with the better technology, given No outside random factors, will usually win any war; and even with AoGs thrown in (Acts of God as the insurance companies call it), they will still usually win at a higher cost. While I've seen good discussion on fitting in armies/civs as per our real world, folks have just barely touched on this other than making large monsters.
The insertion of the Borg (i.e. Formians) was interesting, but should happen further down the road, otherwise you're going to end up with a war-torn world.
2.) Solution to the Formians = Ausel, being a magic heavy country, will do one of two things, both of which result in what my players and I have come to call "Magic Intelligent Nukes". These are not Epic level spells of destruction, doing X-Google-d6.
Nukes = Intelligent Summoned creatures that can Teleport.
What will happen is one of the two events (or variations of them) which no other magic wielding country can protect itself against save to blanket its domain with Anti-magic (and eventually develop non-magic tech). Either:
a.) Ausel Scrys on the Formian Queen and succeeds. Once they know her location they Summon any Outsider type from the Summon Monster 5+ listings that can teleport at will (tpwoE is most common), buff it, and send it to attack and kill the Queen. In the meantime they send others inside to distract the Hive. If they can't get her on the first shot, they repeat. The Hive has no blocks against this. Once the Queen dies, its over.
b.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails. Instead they equip X number of Rogues with Scrolls of Summon Monster 5+ (Use Magic Device saves lives!) and send them into the complex.
c.) Ausel Scries the Formian Queen and fails. They don't care! They use the mages which are the highest in level (didn't someone post that they are powerful enough to become dragons?) which in turn Summon 5+ that have Teleport without Error, buff them, give them a Rough description (spies, Divination, Commune, whatever it takes) who then go in and do the job.
note: This tactic basically is used once Casters in a world have access to Summon 5+ and/or Gate. "I Gate in a Solar of Zeus, and then I ask it to go destroy the infidels of city X which has attacked us!" These creatures don't have to focus on the armies of the bad guys, they can take out leaders, destroy industries, ruin crops on massive levels, or yeah, annihilate armies.
Example: In one of my home campaigns we just had a fleet of 30 warships sunk by one 17th level Wizard. He used Summons to bring in enough Water elementals by himself that he (the most powerful mage in this low-magic/power world) destroyed the whole fleet within rounds and still had time to drown the sailors!
What stops Magic Nukes? The same as in the real world: mutual agreement pacts and treaties. We both know we could "Gate" the world to pieces, but do we want to? Is it worth the risks? Plus if only a select few hold the power there is the "7th Bullet" paradox: If SummonerA just hit our cities, is he weak enough for SummonerB to kill or not; does he have more spells or power?
Eventually although one of the cultures will expand beyond its environmental niche and one of two things must occur: a.) Transport Tech becomes supreme and they leave the continent/world/universe they are in (Gates, T-port, etc) or b.) Weaponry Tech becomes supreme and they use it in a risk-weighed attack on their opponents (this usually only occurs with no social collapse in cultures that are bonded in a form of government with no dissent on any level, or dissent so minor that all in power agree on the changes needed).
Sorry, would have spoken up sooner but just found this thread.
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