Fantasy Book Series: Edda-Earth (Or: the fun of self-publishing and self-promoting)

[Ravenwind]

Hi, all! I asked Morrus directly if I could post here, and he recommended this sub-forum. I used to post a wee bit over on Circvs Maximvs when a friend invited me there in, oh, '06, '07 or so? (You're unlikely to remember me if you were there then. I was quiet.)

At any rate, last year I got quite tired of the black hole of conventional publishing and sending emails to agents that were never answered, and decided to self-publish my books to Amazon. (I'd totally link and shill, but I need, what, nine more posts to do so? ) I used the Wild Talents RPG system to develop the magic systems in the books. The system was recommended by a friend; I like it for world building, but I find the whole normal/hard/wiggle dice thing prohibitively confusing for play. (I'm sure there's a double meaning in that. )

Self-promoting has been an interesting ride, one made up of a lot of trial and error. It's expensive, in many cases, because even though I had an existing fanbase, if a small one, it's difficult to expand that out.

I do think that we're at an interesting point in the publishing industry. The book print industry model for fiction has been, for decades, "show us that you're worth our time by selling stories to magazines." Magazines were the proving grounds (and I submitted lots of stories to the poor editors at Dragon and MZB's Fantasy Magazine in my teens). But the magazine market has shrunk enormously in the past twenty years, as print periodicals in general have struggled with the changes brought by the internet.

What's replaced them as the proving grounds for the book print houses? Not ezines. Ezines are looked down on, by and large, as not professional enough.

So this shrinking, and therefore increasingly competitive market of magazines remains the proof that you can make sales to agents and book publishers. Actual sales of a self-published book? Still looked down on as not professional enough.

What then, becomes the mark of professionalism and credibility? There's the reviews game, which I have to admit I pursue. In the absence of a print house's name as the imprimatur of quality slapped on my book, that leaves getting professional reviewers to write some thoughts on your book. For a price, of course; some are higher than others. Trying to get people who've read your book to leave an Amazon review? People become more confident about trying something when they see that other people have enjoyed it. That helps sales, but doesn't seem to help with credibility in the eyes of agents and whatnot.

In terms of promotion, I've advertised. Project Wonderful, Facebook boosted posts, and tried Google AdWords. I had one of the books exhibited at BookExpo America, and one of them put up on NetGalley by a promotional company affiliated with Bowker, the ISBN company. Got a few reviews due to that, and a promise of an excerpt from the first book to be published in a monthly magazine (which has yet to be run). A reader has featured me on his podcast a couple of times, as well. I even wound up going to my first convention ever here in Houston this year, and was on five panels, for a nice baptism by fire. (Actually, everyone was very kind, and I had some enjoyable conversations as a result of going to ApolloCon.)

I'd be interested in other people's thoughts about the current state of fiction publishing and self-promotion. (I see there's a whole forum up there on publishing in the RPG world, but that doesn't seem to be quite the place for this thread) If you've had success, what's worked for you? What hasn't worked? Where do you see the industry going in 10-20 years? Or is the book dead, as fewer and fewer people identify themselves as readers?

 

[Dioltach]

As an avid and very critical reader of fantasy for 35+ years, I'm highly sceptical of anythimg that's self-published. I'm also highly sceptical of any author who hasn't had a book published in hardcopy by a reputable publishing house.

Apologies to any and all beginning authors out there, but I've been stuck with too many books by inexperienced authors who had a decent story but coulen't get the basics of storytelling right, or didn't proofread, or didn't know the difference between 'then' and 'than'.

There are so many books available, particularly in e-book format, and the sad fact is that the overwhelming majority wouldn't have been published if there were anywhere near the strict quality controls that were in place when hardcopy was the only available route. (This isn't just a problem with e-books: I've come across plenty of hardcopy fantasy novels where it was obvious that no one had bothered to edit or proofread them.)

 

[Morrus]

As an avid and very critical reader of fantasy for 35+ years, I'm highly sceptical of anythimg that's self-published. I'm also highly sceptical of any author who hasn't had a book published in hardcopy by a reputable publishing house.

The times are changing, my friend. Conventional publishing is struggling. Another 10 years, and we'll be looking at a very different publishing landscape. Self-publishing is a thing, now; YouTubers can make more money than movie stars; websites are killing print news. You can value whatever you choose, of course, but if traditional publishing houses are your standard, you're missing out.

 

[Rune]

As an avid and very critical reader of fantasy for 35+ years, I'm highly sceptical of anythimg that's self-published. I'm also highly sceptical of any author who hasn't had a book published in hardcopy by a reputable publishing house.

Funny. The number of novels I've read published by reputable publishing houses that have been pure drivel is staggering. Especially in the fantasy genre. And I recognized that even when I was in high school. I don't think being professionally published necessarily equates to a higher standard of quality (although, proofreading, yeah). Some are quality. Most aren't.

I view self-published fiction as modern-day pulp fiction (not the genre, but the publishing practice). It's cheap. It's easy to get ahold of, if you know about it, or chance upon it. And it's quality is almost solely determined by its author. Probably the only good way to market something like that is with a really good example of the text within.

Apologies to any and all beginning authors out there, but I've been stuck with too many books by inexperienced authors who had a decent story but coulen't get the basics of storytelling right, or didn't proofread, or didn't know the difference between 'then' and 'than'.

Story is overrated. In fact, a dogmatic adherence to the telling of a story often comes at the expense of character development. Which is tragic, particularly if the story is a good one. As for understanding the language being used, well, yeah. Authors should do that. Proofreading, though, has to be a collaborative effort. And if the author self-edits, they should at least seek out--and take into account--outside editorial advice. If something has to go to make the whole thing work, the author is rarely in the best position to recognize it.

There are so many books available, particularly in e-book format, and the sad fact is that the overwhelming majority wouldn't have been published if there were anywhere near the strict quality controls that were in place when hardcopy was the only available route. (This isn't just a problem with e-books: I've come across plenty of hardcopy fantasy novels where it was obvious that no one had bothered to edit or proofread them.)

I agree with the premise that most e-books would not (and, indeed, have not) been published in hardcopy. I don't believe that quality is the distinguishing feature. There's just too much professionally published garbage out there for that to be true. Most e-books will remain electronic because there's just so many of them. Readers can't possibly sift through all of them to find something that resonates. Publishers certainly can't, either.

The only hope a self-publisher has of standing out from the morass is to somehow build name recognition. To that end, may I suggest that the OP post a brief, but representative sample? Showing off your writing style and the depth of your editing could go a long way toward alleviating concerns about potential quality issues that might otherwise keep potential readers from even taking note.

 

[Ravenwind]

Funny. The number of novels I've read published by reputable publishing houses that have been pure drivel is staggering.

I've actually been driven out of reading quite a lot of modern fiction by this, I have to be honest. I've become a consumer of non-fiction, and a writer of fiction (off-hours, of course. My day job is as a technical writer, and I've taught college composition at two schools, too..).

I view self-published fiction as modern-day pulp fiction (not the genre, but the publishing practice). It's cheap. It's easy to get ahold of, if you know about it, or chance upon it. And it's quality is almost solely determined by its author. Probably the only good way to market something like that is with a really good example of the text within.

I've likened the current era to two historical ones in printing before. Back in the Renaissance, Shakespeare's plays were first published as quartos--cheaper editions, in which the pages were folded four times before being bound and then cut (octavos were considered even cheaper and poorer, generally). It wasn't until 1623, when Ben Jonson, himself a playwright and thus *invested* in making plays appear to be "quality literature," sat down with the plays of his late rival and had them published as folios--high-quality books wherein the pages were only folded once before being bound. High-class books--the Bible, Chaucer, Latin works--were published as folios. Things that weren't, were. . . transitory things. Less valuable.

Fast-forward out of the era of linen rag-paper and into the 20th century, and that same divide appeared again. Trade paperback (softbound, pulp fiction) vs. the hardbound edition. The hardbound edition said that you had *arrived.* Paperbacks? Well, the Beatles had a song making fun of people who wanted to be those.

I see the next twenty years, especially with the advent of on-demand printing, being a sea-change in which the market will establish the popularity of an author, and the ebook/self-printed being the quarto/softbound, and then, once some agent or print house notices "oh, you've had a few sales, let's see what you can do for us. . . " then the hard bound edition being issued as the mark of having, again, arrived.

The only hope a self-publisher has of standing out from the morass is to somehow build name recognition. To that end, may I suggest that the OP post a brief, but representative sample? Showing off your writing style and the depth of your editing could go a long way toward alleviating concerns about potential quality issues that might otherwise keep potential readers from even taking note.

I had Book II up on NetGalley as a way of getting it circulated to people free of charge. Both books have an extensive chunk available free of charge to readers on Amazon so that they can take them for a test-drive as it were. (So far, of the copies sold, I've had exactly two requests for 'refund,' which I found deeply amusing, as you can read several hundred pages deep for free, so you should probably know by that point if you want to keep going, eh?). There's also a free copy of the first chapter or so of Book I on my Kirkus author page. (Again, I'd totally link, but I'm under my post count cap. But if you Google Edda-Earth, there are lots of links that will take you there. )

Regarding the point on grammar and style? I took my MA in English (medieval and Renaissance focus), and even after having *taught* composition twice, worked for a textbook publisher, and having spent the last, oh, fourteen, fifteen years as a technical writer and editor. . . there is no way that an author can see all of their own mistakes. Your eyes gloss over them. Mechanically, reading out loud might help; that's something I always encouraged my students to do, but that's somewhat impossible over a length of about twenty to thirty pages.

I've had friends help me in typowhacking, but again, not even every editor will find every typo. I've seen doozies in Pratchett books (sadly), in which the editors clearly substituted a wrong, but similar word in a sentence, or didn't understand that a sentence was being thought, and not spoken out loud, and thus missed the necessary italics. (Which is what second editions are for. )

 

[Rune]

I've actually been driven out of reading quite a lot of modern fiction by this, I have to be honest. I've become a consumer of non-fiction, and a writer of fiction (off-hours, of course. My day job is as a technical writer, and I've taught college composition at two schools, too..).

Yeah. I have, also, sadly. Although I have put my Lit degree to a perhaps more practical use; I've been cooking for most of the last 12 years!

I've likened the current era to two historical ones in printing before. Back in the Renaissance, Shakespeare's plays were first published as quartos--cheaper editions, in which the pages were folded four times before being bound and then cut (octavos were considered even cheaper and poorer, generally). It wasn't until 1623, when Ben Jonson, himself a playwright and thus *invested* in making plays appear to be "quality literature," sat down with the plays of his late rival and had them published as folios--high-quality books wherein the pages were only folded once before being bound. High-class books--the Bible, Chaucer, Latin works--were published as folios. Things that weren't, were. . . transitory things. Less valuable.

Actually, that parallel illustrates my points very well, I think. Shakespeare's popularity during his lifetime was kind of a fluke. He was prolific, gifted, and skilled, but none of that matters until someone notices you. He got that in his lifetime, unlike so very many artists who did not. But, even with that popularity, he would be but a footnote in history if not for the efforts of a rival to capitalize on that popularity after he had died. He isn't known to us because he was brilliant; he is known to us because he was popular and it is through that popularity that we even ever had a chance to know that he was brilliant.

I had Book II up on NetGalley as a way of getting it circulated to people free of charge. Both books have an extensive chunk available free of charge to readers on Amazon so that they can take them for a test-drive as it were. (So far, of the copies sold, I've had exactly two requests for 'refund,' which I found deeply amusing, as you can read several hundred pages deep for free, so you should probably know by that point if you want to keep going, eh?). There's also a free copy of the first chapter or so of Book I on my Kirkus author page. (Again, I'd totally link, but I'm under my post count cap. But if you Google Edda-Earth, there are lots of links that will take you there. )

Providing is only part of the equation. Peddling is the rest. And I really don't know how best to go about it for a self-published author. Having an active presence on message boards (as you are doing) is something, but can probably only foster a grassroots fanbase, at best. I believe you can gain widespread recognition that way, but the road would be rough and the labor long--akin to climbing to the top of the rock world by playing in bars for thirty years.

It is possible, too, that providing too large a sample is actually a barrier to those who don't know you from Jack. It may be that the length chosen for such samples fosters the impression that the author expects investment to occur only if it is read in its entirety. After all, why else would the author put so much up? Perhaps, peddling shorter excerpts (such as could fit on the back of a paperback) would serve to give a taste of style to readers and, hopefully, hook them so that investing the time to read a longer sample is more palatable. Or maybe not. I'm just musing, here.

But, PM me that link, and I'll post it for you.

 

[Ravenwind]

Yeah. I have, also, sadly. Although I have put my Lit degree to a perhaps more practical use; I've been cooking for most of the last 12 years!

Someone's got to interpret those recipes. And there's probably some joke somewhere about deconstructionism vs. molecular cooking.

Actually, that parallel illustrates my points very well, I think. Shakespeare's popularity during his lifetime was kind of a fluke. He was prolific, gifted, and skilled, but none of that matters until someone notices you. He got that in his lifetime, unlike so very many artists who did not. But, even with that popularity, he would be but a footnote in history if not for the efforts of a rival to capitalize on that popularity after he had died.

Precisely. He got curated, by someone who had a patron, and who had diligence and the right platform. Curation is pretty much the service that reviewers and bloggers offer these days. For instance, I've had some really nice reviews by bloggers, but that only goes as far as their audience does. My publicist had a request to put an excerpt of 2000 words in that monthly, but that hasn't run yet; and likewise, when I approached a major RPG online magazine about an excerpt, they offered me that and a podcast appearance. (That was tentatively slated for later this month, but I don't know if that's happening at this point.)

I have no control over how much of the book Amazon puts up for free, to be honest. They show a flat percentage of the book for free, and that's. . . well, all controlled by them.

Providing is only part of the equation. Pedaling is the rest. And I really don't know how best to go about it for a self-published author. Having an active presence on message boards (as you are doing) is something, but can probably only foster a grassroots fanbase, at best. I believe you can gain widespread recognition that way, but the road would be rough and the labor long--akin to climbing to the top of the rock world by playing in bars for thirty years.

Peddling my wares is definitely a fascinating process, and, as my husband points out, probably harder in most respects than the writing was for me. I'm retiring by nature, and I detest shilling. There are people out there who are made for the schmoozing, and they do a great job of it, and that's why they go into marketing and make the big bucks doing that sort of thing!

My life-long approach was that if I had something of quality, people would surely recognize that on their own. And, honestly, people have. I wrote a fanfic a few years back that got me 25,000 emails before I switched that account to a different email, simply so I could put that behind me and get on with writing something that was my own intellectual property. Many of those readers from across the world have picked up my books, or added themselves to my Facebook feed. My mistake was not putting up the Facebook at the height of the fic and keeping that rolling forward, but at the time, I was drowning under emails, and couldn't respond to them all. Adding a Facebook to that seemed. . . a terrifying sure way never to write again, hah.

So, yeah. There's a fine line, somewhere, between blatant shilling and . . . necessary self-promotion. And I have no sense of where that fine line is, because 'necessary self-promotion,' to me, feels like 'blatant self-aggrandizement.' Possibly involving a red feather boa.

 

[Rune]

Someone's got to interpret those recipes. And there's probably some joke somewhere about deconstructionism vs. molecular cooking.

I suppose so. Certainly, you can't successfully improvise a dish without first understanding the elements that will compose it. Restaurant cooking (and managing, for that matter, in different ways) is more like editing than writing. You're taking other people's creations (either from a set menu, or special orders) and you produce a final product by assembling an actualuzation of those, properly paced and balanced toward highlighting the collective message emergent from the meal.

Or something like that.

I have no control over how much of the book Amazon puts up for free, to be honest. They show a flat percentage of the book for free, and that's. . . well, all controlled by them.

I was thinking more along the lines of having the small excerpt for peddling purposes. Take it with you wherever you go, so to speak. Then direct those who are hooked by it to the Amazon sample. Or straight to the purchase, if they're already sold.

Peddling my wares is definitely a fascinating process, and, as my husband points out, probably harder in most respects than the writing was for me. I'm retiring by nature, and I detest shilling. There are people out there who are made for the schmoozing, and they do a great job of it, and that's why they go into marketing and make the big bucks doing that sort of thing!

My life-long approach was that if I had something of quality, people would surely recognize that on their own. And, honestly, people have. I wrote a fanfic a few years back that got me 25,000 emails before I switched that account to a different email, simply so I could put that behind me and get on with writing something that was my own intellectual property. Many of those readers from across the world have picked up my books, or added themselves to my Facebook feed. My mistake was not putting up the Facebook at the height of the fic and keeping that rolling forward, but at the time, I was drowning under emails, and couldn't respond to them all. Adding a Facebook to that seemed. . . a terrifying sure way never to write again, hah.

So, yeah. There's a fine line, somewhere, between blatant shilling and . . . necessary self-promotion. And I have no sense of where that fine line is, because 'necessary self-promotion,' to me, feels like 'blatant self-aggrandizement.' Possibly involving a red feather boa.

I'm with you all the way on this. I tend not to trust schmoozy salespersons (especially the pushy kind) and feel exceptionally uncomfortable when I am in a situation that requires me to emulate the behavior. I want the quality of my work to stand on its own, because that's what I look for when I'm the consumer, but I've got to know to look. So, the question for me is, how do you draw attention without throwing up a bunch of hype?

 

[Rune]

There's also a free copy of the first chapter or so of Book I on my Kirkus author page. (Again, I'd totally link, but I'm under my post count cap. But if you Google Edda-Earth, there are lots of links that will take you there. )

But, PM me that link, and I'll post it for you.

And here it is: www.edda-earth.com

 

[Ravenwind]

Restaurant cooking (and managing, for that matter, in different ways) is more like editing than writing. You're taking other people's creations (either from a set menu, or special orders) and you produce a final product by assembling an actualuzation of those, properly paced and balanced toward highlighting the collective message emergent from the meal.

We could push this metaphor further by noting that there are certainly culinary cliches; how many places currently have molten chocolate cakes on the dessert menus? (Of course, some of that could derive from the tendency to outsource the dessert menus to maximize the profit margins these days, but that's a diversion off-topic that could last some time. . . . )

I'm with you all the way on this. I tend not to trust schmoozy salespersons (especially the pushy kind) and feel exceptionally uncomfortable when I am in a situation that requires me to emulate the behavior. I want the quality of my work to stand on its own, because that's what I look for when I'm the consumer, but I've got to know to look. So, the question for me is, how do you draw attention without throwing up a bunch of hype?

Yeah. Therein lies the rub. Or the marinade. (Wait, we're not back on cooking, are we?)

In the case of the lady who writes A Girl and her Fed, she's got her weekly webcomic audience, which feeds into the related novels, which apparently started their sales on the Amazon Bestseller list, which certainly isn't shabby. She doesn't rely on reviews. She relies on the comic and people linking it to each other in viral fashion, and people liking the comic well enough to look into the rest of her expanding universe. Which is cool, and she's worked hard to make it happen. I respect it, but it's not a model I can pursue, because I have the artistic talent of a paralyzed halibut.

I suppose that for me, it comes down to creating ethos, to bring in the hoary old rhetorical term. Creating credibility. You can't manufacture it. You just have to take what you do seriously and. . . try to spread the word. And hope that other people will take a chance, enjoy it, and pass it along. And yes, do some judicious advertising using other people's words, when those words are properly authorized for use.

I haven't entirely given up on finding an agent. It is, however, something of a black hole, and my hope is essentially, that they'll see success, and be willing to work with me. [Though every time I say this, the more cynical part of me, usually in chorus with my husband, says, "Ah, so you'll work like a dog to promote your work, become a success, and then someone will discover your success and find it worthwhile to exploit?" And then the other part of my brain replies, "But, well, yes, but people line up to be exploited like that!"