Fantasy craft??? will you bother?
AscentStudios
First Post
GlassJaw said:
As a counterpoint - would you rather re-buy 500 pages of rules you already have to get the fantasy rules for Spycraft? Mutants and Masterminds, Hero, GURPS, d20 Modern - all these games use toolkit books outside their core that encourage players to use two books. If for some reason FantasyCraft is huge, then maybe we would make a single product out of them at a later date, but for now, it's just like any other genre book we'll be doing. It's ultimately easier on our customers and better for our core brand of Spycraft.
trancejeremy
Adventurer
AscentStudios said:
I dunno about that, though. It automatically ensures that only people who own Spycraft 2.0 will buy it, whereas FC might have had a larger audience as a stand alone book. I very much doubt that people will buy an extra $40 book just because they want to try FC.
And really, I wouldn't think there would be much overlap. Some classes and feats would be the same, but I would think a lot would be different; the gear would be completely different; some of the the dramatical conflictions would be dropped, like hacking, while the others would have to be tweaked a bit.
Unless I'm misunderstanding things (which would be very easy, since it's not like your website has much info on this), and this is just a fantasy style supplement for Spycraft, ie, simply Shadowrun or Urban Arcana for Spycraft, for fantasy stuff in modern times, as opposed to what I originally thought, a game aimed at more medieval/D&D style fantasy?.
Psion
Adventurer
trancejeremy said:
Though you can blend them (and that sounds like the intent behind the current Spellbound and Origin of the Species PDF lines), the sound of the settings in the seminar were not "modern/urban fantasy" like Urban Arcana, but full-on fantasy settings.
On the topic of "core rulebook or supplement", how do you decide this sort of thing. If 60% of your sales would be from the supplement format and 40% would be to people who wanted a stand-alone format, is it worth it to create two different runs (which would include a lower bulk discount and the extra work of laying out a second product)? What is the split really like? 70/30? 80/20? Who knows?
If 4e weren't coming out, I'd be more concerned about lost sales of people who don't already own spycraft just looking for something different. As it is, it seems to me like existing Spycraft fans are going to be a stronger marker, or at least that's my instinct.
GlassJaw
Hero
AscentStudios said:
500 pages will be the same? How? I can't see how that much of SC 2.0 would be reused for a fantasy setting, especially considering the vast majority of SC is the gear section, none of which I assume wouldn't be duplicated in a fantasy rulebook.
Gear aside, the classes, feats, skills, dramatic conflicts, and even some of the combat section are all tailored to a modern game. And even if there is some overlap, it's SO much easier to have everything in a single book for reference (like Conan, Grim Tales, and many other OGL books).
I find this news very baffling and somewhat disappointing.
I've looked at spycraft for using it in different time periods (Feudal Japan and Pirates of the Carribean, mostly)
What doesn't work in a fantasy setting, character option wise:
Origin Options:
Criminal (but all you'd have to do is choose a different weapon proficiency to grant, then it' fine), Geek, Hot Rodder, Pilot (unless the setting has airborn mounts or something, in which case, it's fine), Serviceman (same as Criminal, change the proficiencies it grants and it's ace), Soldier of Fortune (same deal as Serviceman and Criminal), Special Ops (again, change the proficiency and it's all good)
That's 0 out of 28 talents that would get the axe, and 2-7 out of 40 specialties.
Classes:
Hacker (Though if you want to file off the serial numbers, rename all the abilites and electronics gear and call it Scryer or something, it works and makes for an interesting approach to divination)
Intruder: Just ignore the word "Electronics" in the text of the Booby Trap ability, and it's fine
Pointman: Remove the Hacker Cross-Class Ability options (unless you did the Scryer thingy, then this is fine, too)
Scientist: Just remove the word "Electronics" from the Elbow Grease Research Project choice, replace or remove the Electronics Familiarity choice from Research Project
Snoop: Remove or replace the Intelligence Analysis choice for the Spookshow ability, remove the flavor text about bugs in the Big Brother ability, and apply some handwavium to Eye in the Sky (just don't say *how* he knows these things, it even seems more impressive that way)
Wheelman: Change the 11th level version of Manual Adjustment to apply to a different kind of check than Electronics, and take the same approach to Elbow Grease as Scientist. Wheelman is more of a niche in a fantasy setting, but it still works quite well for ship captains and stuff. Word is there's a class called Lancer that will cover the cavalry approach more directly.
The remaining base classes, Advocate, Explorer, Faceman, Scout, Sleuth, and Soldier, all work 100% as written.
Field Analyst: Change Priority Request to cover another different gear category instead of Electronics
Grunt: This one doesn't really work in fantasy
Inventor: Change references to the Techie feat to Scholar, and change the electronics reference in the Technophile ability to another category
Triggerman: Unless the technology has hit flintlocks, triggerman is pretty much a no-go. However, even with only breach-loading pistols, he's a terror in combat, being able to draw any handgun within 5 feet as a free action.
Brawler, Cleaner, Con Artist, Counter-Terrorist, Guide, Illuminatus, Politico, Raptor, Schemer, Sniper, Stuntman, Tactician, Transporter, and Virtuoso work fine.
Counter-Terrorist could use a rename, but mechanically it works just fine. Remove the flavor text in the cases of Raptor and Stuntman, and in the case of Sniper, it was actually deliberately designed to work just fine with bows and such.
Feats:
Basic Combat Feats:
Battle Hardened is slightly less useful with encountering Cover Fire and Suppressive Fire being less likely, but then again, stress damage might be more likely in a setting where people can toss fireballs. Still works, though.
Explosives Basics probably gets the axe, but in some settings it's still useful.
Fire-Team Basics, Fire-Team Mastery, and Fire-Team Supremacy probably aren't as useful under normal circumstances, but they still function.
Tac-Squad Basics, Tac-Squad Mastery, and Tac-Squad Supremacy could use a rename, and Mastery is somewhat more limited in usefulness, but they still function, too.
Melee Combat Feats are all a-ok
Ranged Combat Feats:
Autofire Basics and Autofire Mastery surprisingly work just fine, though Autofire Supremacy doesn't work unless the setting has automatic weapons of some sort, like repeating crossbows or something.
Flamethrower Basics probably isn't applicable, unless you've got greek fire pumps on warships or something.
Grenade Basics can be tweaked to cover your flasks of Alchemist's Fire and such
Guided Weapon Basics is probably out
Revolver basics is almost certainly out
Rock and Roll! is out
Style Over Caliber is no good unless you've got flintlocks and stuff
"This... Is My Boom Stick!" is out
Unarmed Combat Feats are a-ok
Chance Feats are a-ok
Chase Feats:
Simulator Jockey gets the axe
Wind Rider will be of extremely limited usefulness unless there's airships or pegasii or griffons or something, but it works with as little as a hang-glider
Covert Feats are all fine
Gear Feats:
Electronic Warrior is out (unless you re-tooled Hacker)
Extra Gear (Electronics) is likewise
Basic Skill Feats:
Techie is out (unless you re-tooled Hacker)
Advanced Skill Feats are fine
Style Feats:
High Tech Contacts goes the way of Techie
Terrain Feats are a-ok
Tradecraft Feats:
Bug Basics is out
Otherwise, all the feats work, some being more appealing and some being more of a niche
Gear obviously involves a lot of changes, of course. The Gear chapter is actually only about 100 pages (1/5 or so of the book)
What doesn't work in a fantasy setting, character option wise:
Origin Options:
Criminal (but all you'd have to do is choose a different weapon proficiency to grant, then it' fine), Geek, Hot Rodder, Pilot (unless the setting has airborn mounts or something, in which case, it's fine), Serviceman (same as Criminal, change the proficiencies it grants and it's ace), Soldier of Fortune (same deal as Serviceman and Criminal), Special Ops (again, change the proficiency and it's all good)
That's 0 out of 28 talents that would get the axe, and 2-7 out of 40 specialties.
Classes:
Hacker (Though if you want to file off the serial numbers, rename all the abilites and electronics gear and call it Scryer or something, it works and makes for an interesting approach to divination)
Intruder: Just ignore the word "Electronics" in the text of the Booby Trap ability, and it's fine
Pointman: Remove the Hacker Cross-Class Ability options (unless you did the Scryer thingy, then this is fine, too)
Scientist: Just remove the word "Electronics" from the Elbow Grease Research Project choice, replace or remove the Electronics Familiarity choice from Research Project
Snoop: Remove or replace the Intelligence Analysis choice for the Spookshow ability, remove the flavor text about bugs in the Big Brother ability, and apply some handwavium to Eye in the Sky (just don't say *how* he knows these things, it even seems more impressive that way)
Wheelman: Change the 11th level version of Manual Adjustment to apply to a different kind of check than Electronics, and take the same approach to Elbow Grease as Scientist. Wheelman is more of a niche in a fantasy setting, but it still works quite well for ship captains and stuff. Word is there's a class called Lancer that will cover the cavalry approach more directly.
The remaining base classes, Advocate, Explorer, Faceman, Scout, Sleuth, and Soldier, all work 100% as written.
Field Analyst: Change Priority Request to cover another different gear category instead of Electronics
Grunt: This one doesn't really work in fantasy
Inventor: Change references to the Techie feat to Scholar, and change the electronics reference in the Technophile ability to another category
Triggerman: Unless the technology has hit flintlocks, triggerman is pretty much a no-go. However, even with only breach-loading pistols, he's a terror in combat, being able to draw any handgun within 5 feet as a free action.
Brawler, Cleaner, Con Artist, Counter-Terrorist, Guide, Illuminatus, Politico, Raptor, Schemer, Sniper, Stuntman, Tactician, Transporter, and Virtuoso work fine.
Counter-Terrorist could use a rename, but mechanically it works just fine. Remove the flavor text in the cases of Raptor and Stuntman, and in the case of Sniper, it was actually deliberately designed to work just fine with bows and such.
Feats:
Basic Combat Feats:
Battle Hardened is slightly less useful with encountering Cover Fire and Suppressive Fire being less likely, but then again, stress damage might be more likely in a setting where people can toss fireballs. Still works, though.
Explosives Basics probably gets the axe, but in some settings it's still useful.
Fire-Team Basics, Fire-Team Mastery, and Fire-Team Supremacy probably aren't as useful under normal circumstances, but they still function.
Tac-Squad Basics, Tac-Squad Mastery, and Tac-Squad Supremacy could use a rename, and Mastery is somewhat more limited in usefulness, but they still function, too.
Melee Combat Feats are all a-ok
Ranged Combat Feats:
Autofire Basics and Autofire Mastery surprisingly work just fine, though Autofire Supremacy doesn't work unless the setting has automatic weapons of some sort, like repeating crossbows or something.
Flamethrower Basics probably isn't applicable, unless you've got greek fire pumps on warships or something.
Grenade Basics can be tweaked to cover your flasks of Alchemist's Fire and such
Guided Weapon Basics is probably out
Revolver basics is almost certainly out
Rock and Roll! is out
Style Over Caliber is no good unless you've got flintlocks and stuff
"This... Is My Boom Stick!" is out
Unarmed Combat Feats are a-ok
Chance Feats are a-ok
Chase Feats:
Simulator Jockey gets the axe
Wind Rider will be of extremely limited usefulness unless there's airships or pegasii or griffons or something, but it works with as little as a hang-glider
Covert Feats are all fine
Gear Feats:
Electronic Warrior is out (unless you re-tooled Hacker)
Extra Gear (Electronics) is likewise
Basic Skill Feats:
Techie is out (unless you re-tooled Hacker)
Advanced Skill Feats are fine
Style Feats:
High Tech Contacts goes the way of Techie
Terrain Feats are a-ok
Tradecraft Feats:
Bug Basics is out
Otherwise, all the feats work, some being more appealing and some being more of a niche
Gear obviously involves a lot of changes, of course. The Gear chapter is actually only about 100 pages (1/5 or so of the book)
trancejeremy
Adventurer
Well, let'd do a breakdown of the SC 2.0 book.
Character Creation - 75 pages (10 pages ability scores, 10 pages origins (talents/specialties), 25 pages base classes, 20 pages expert classes. 10 pages other misc stuff)
Skills - 85 pages -
Feats - 40 pages
Gear - 110 pages
Combat - 40
Dramatic Conflict - 35
Game Control - 70
----------------------
Personally, I would think think would have to re-do the classes, so the bulk of the first secton would be different; the skills section would also ideally be completely redone, with skills eliminated and added and checks apprropriate for fantasy added to existing ones. A lot of feats would probably be the same, but some removed and some added.
The Gear section would be almost totally different. I guess combat would largely be the same, as would dramtic conflict (dropping hacking and adding something like summoning or banishing, maybe).
The Game Control section would likely have to be heavily rewritten, since it's aimed at spy games or providing templates for modern day games.
I think FC would have to be pretty heavy to cover the ground thorougly, and the duplication with SC would likely only add about 100 pages or so, which I think would be worth it. Frankly, I think FC is probably going to flop anyway, but if it requires the SC book, it's going to be an epic flop.
Character Creation - 75 pages (10 pages ability scores, 10 pages origins (talents/specialties), 25 pages base classes, 20 pages expert classes. 10 pages other misc stuff)
Skills - 85 pages -
Feats - 40 pages
Gear - 110 pages
Combat - 40
Dramatic Conflict - 35
Game Control - 70
----------------------
Personally, I would think think would have to re-do the classes, so the bulk of the first secton would be different; the skills section would also ideally be completely redone, with skills eliminated and added and checks apprropriate for fantasy added to existing ones. A lot of feats would probably be the same, but some removed and some added.
The Gear section would be almost totally different. I guess combat would largely be the same, as would dramtic conflict (dropping hacking and adding something like summoning or banishing, maybe).
The Game Control section would likely have to be heavily rewritten, since it's aimed at spy games or providing templates for modern day games.
I think FC would have to be pretty heavy to cover the ground thorougly, and the duplication with SC would likely only add about 100 pages or so, which I think would be worth it. Frankly, I think FC is probably going to flop anyway, but if it requires the SC book, it's going to be an epic flop.
GlassJaw
Hero
Using Spycraft for an era that has a dramatically different (and reduced) level of technology is not what the system was intended to do. Sure it's a toolkit but it's not generic or universal toolkit. It's a modern toolkit.
The one thing FantasyCraft shouldn't be is a rename of classes, feats, skills, whatever from SC. Since it's a whole new style of play, it should be rewritten from the ground up. Sure, it can borrow the format and mechanical framework of Spycraft but all classes, feats, skills, gear, campaign qualities, etc should be designed with a fantasy game in mind.
Couldn't agree more. I originally assumed FC would be a stand-alone book and that was one of the things that attracted me to the idea. However, since you will need SC, that means a) I'll have to lug two books around to run it and b) it's probably not getting the amount of redesign that I would have hoped.
GlassJaw
Hero
trancejeremy said:
Reading through this thread and this list again, the only thing I think that might be redundant is some of the combat section. And compared to the rest of the book, that's only 40 pages. I'll gladly pay another $5 for 40 redundant pages so I only need one book. Everything else on that list would have to be rewritten and tailored for a fantasy game IMO.
Armistice
First Post
GlassJaw said:
You do realize the size of the original rule-set? They'd essentially have to, as a tiny company, re-create what they did as part of AEG. That's a massive undertaking and a little unreasonable IMO. They aren't going to reprint the entire skill system (Dramatic Conflicts etc), nor duplicate the Feats chapter or Combat section etc, etc. Fantasy Craft is a toolkit product, building on the premise set forth in the Spycraft 2.0 core.
If you don't play Spycraft then this is perfect since you'll only be using it for inspiration. If you do, you've already got the core Spycraft book or the PDF and this is a moot point. At the gaming table you'll need two books (or book+pdf) and they've never hidden this fact. If I'm recalling correctly this is even mentioned in the core rulebook. When Farthest Star comes out, essentially Scifi Craft, the same rule will hold true. I'm not sure how this could be a surprise.
Similar Threads
