Fantasy craft??? will you bother?

[AscentStudios]

Interesting thoughts here. It seems people think we're trying to put out a D&D killer here...we're not. The intent of FantasyCraft was to open up the ruleset to other periods of play. It's been requested many times by our fanbase and we were looking to serve that.

I'm really surprised/boggled myself that there's such a negative reaction to needing 2 books, though - anyone who plans on playing or running D&D 4e with just the Players' Handbook at the table, please raise their hand. With second printing imminent (I have my new sexy galley as of today, and it sure is pretty...), asking people rebuy what would end up being a "re-fluffed" version of the 2.0 rules they likely will have just purchased is somewhat silly...and I think is beside the point.

Personally, I would think think would have to re-do the classes, so the bulk of the first secton would be different; the skills section would also ideally be completely redone, with skills eliminated and added and checks apprropriate for fantasy added to existing ones. A lot of feats would probably be the same, but some removed and some added.

I'll go out on a limb and say that, gear chapter aside, 75% of what's in the 2.0 rulebook can be used in a pre-modern setting with minor tweaking or reframing of how abilities work. If you look at the old 1960's decade book, much of that book was conversion for the core book and it ported over just fine for players - it ended up being arguably the best/most popular supplement of Spycraft first ed.

Classes will be looked at hard and tweaked or rewritten as needed - some just need a different context (frinstance, a fantasy Snoop's Intercept Communication ability can be seen as coming from a spy network or bribed couriers rather than an NSA database). Skills - looking at it again, I could see a few skill checks going out, but most of the skills save a few (Computers, Electronics, some Science and Cultures and Drive foci) are perfectly usable as they are. Feats - yep, some come in, some go out.

The Gear section would be almost totally different. I guess combat would largely be the same, as would dramtic conflict (dropping hacking and adding something like summoning or banishing, maybe).

The gear itself will certainly change, and we'll be offering up new ways to handle gearing and new stuff for the obligatory magic items. Combat and Dramatic Conflicts will only be expanded.

The Game Control section would likely have to be heavily rewritten, since it's aimed at spy games or providing templates for modern day games.

This is where the settings/genre bit I mentioned in earlier posts comes in. Rules for campaign qualities, campaign and NPC construction, game running, and events - which make up the bulk of that chapter - will run just fine with just additions.

Frankly, I think FC is probably going to flop anyway, but if it requires the SC book, it's going to be an epic flop.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In all good spirits, I look forward to making you eat some crow

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm really surprised/boggled myself that there's such a negative reaction to needing 2 books

I just look at OGL books like Conan, Black Company, Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, etc - all self-contained.

And perhaps I have a different view of converting SC to fantasy but I'm still of the opinion that the vast majority would have to be rewritten and revised. And what overlaps I would gladly pay extra to have all in one book.

My opinion of that won't change.

Plus, SC 2.0 is such a cumbersome book to navigate, I'd rather not have my referencing be spread across two books.

But of course my opinion isn't going to change anyone else's so I'll just say good luck, and I'll certainly be watching for the release.

 

[Toccata]

Using Spycraft for an era that has a dramatically different (and reduced) level of technology is not what the system was intended to do. Sure it's a toolkit but it's not generic or universal toolkit. It's a modern toolkit.

The one thing FantasyCraft shouldn't be is a rename of classes, feats, skills, whatever from SC. Since it's a whole new style of play, it should be rewritten from the ground up. Sure, it can borrow the format and mechanical framework of Spycraft but all classes, feats, skills, gear, campaign qualities, etc should be designed with a fantasy game in mind.[/QUOTE]

I'm still not seeing how Explorer, Soldier or Advocate don't fit a fantasy game.

And feat-wise? You've still got your two-weapon fighting, your cleaving, your melee combat feats, your combat expertise, etc.
Armor Basics/Mastery/Supremacy are even more useful in a setting without lasers and armor piercing bullets and stuff.

Really, only a handful of the character options are technology dependent, and that makes up most of the ones that are distinctly modern themed, like the clear James Bond, Dirty Harry, and Army of Darkness references in three certain ranged combat feats.

I'm sure the book will cover more skill uses, but things like Bluff and Sneak and Acrobatics don't exactly need a redesign for fantasy.
There's already rules available for crafting some magic items in Spellbound Volume I.

Essentially my point is that the existing rules cover a lot generic enough ground that they don't need a redesign at all in about half of the cases, and very little redesign in most of the rest.
And they are indeed making more fantasy themed classes, so it's not like you'll have a dearth of magic users or dragoons or whatever.

 

[Toccata]

Reading through this thread and this list again, the only thing I think that might be redundant is some of the combat section. And compared to the rest of the book, that's only 40 pages. I'll gladly pay another $5 for 40 redundant pages so I only need one book. Everything else on that list would have to be rewritten and tailored for a fantasy game IMO.

How's that? Why would the entire skill chapter need to be redesigned?
Is sneaking that much different in a fantasy setting than a modern one?
Haggling?
Impressing people?
Lying?

Computers, Electronics, and some of the drive and science focuses would have to go, the cultures focuses would obviously be replaced by those of the setting, but everything else looks pretty much good to go to me

Acrobatics isn't different in a fantasy world.
Bureaucracies are pretty much the same.
Forgeries are still around.
Manipulating people is an ancient art anyway
Mechanics, don't think internal combustion engine, because that's overly narrow, it already covers things like counterweights and spear traps and all that jazz.
Medicine? Bandages and splints a hardly a new invention.
Resolve? Completely internal and therefore independent of setting.
Security is your Pick Lock.
Sense motive would hardly need to change.
I can't think of a single way Sneak would change at all.
Survival is totally your one-stop-shop for rangers.

I already went over the feats in terms of which ones would work or not, and except for the unarmed combat feats, which mostly have an asian martial arts theme, the non-technology-dependent ones are nearly all generic enough to work fine in Fantasy without even threatening to break the suspension of disbelief.

I mean, if Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Two-Weapon Basics, Cleaving Basics and such aren't sufficiently designed for fantasy, I think there's another game that you might want to take that complaint up with.

 

[Cergorach]

Holy cow! Good questions. I'll take each in order

Nooooooooooo! No 'Holy cows' in FC please ;-) (in reference to the whole D&D holy cow discussions)

It is comparable to Spycraft 2.0, actually All classes and so forth work on the same core philosophy, so there's something interesting at each level for you to gain.

I should have expected that answer ;-) In D&D when a party hits the level 15-20 range, they tend to carry around the equivelant of a tactical nuke, i blame the vaster classes and some of the magical items. I never got the impression that SC characters carried tactical nukes around (probably because SC isn't the go into room and kill monsters game). How is this handled with the FC rules set?

We *don't* follow the DnD philosophy about gear (obviously), but a new "stockpile" gear system will allow you to keep your stuff from mission to mission, rather than turning it back to an employer as the core Spycraft gear system models.

That sounds very interesting, mostly because i always found the gear system the most difficult to convert to something usable in a Fantasy or Cyberpunk game without stretching the story/campaign to fit the rules. How would this "stockpile" work? Would there be limits on how much they could take along on each 'run'? And if so, how would this be explained?

Monsters are handled using an enhanced and expanded version of the Spycraft 2.0 NPC system, which is already being prototyped (I've used it for the upcoming Fragile Minds horror PDF). The book will also include a SRD > 2.0 conversion guide that should allow you to feed any d20 monster through and get a satisfactory Spycraft replica in the end (I also plan to upgrade this for 4e once the monster SRD appears on shelves). The number of monsters to appear in the book it TBD, but a bestiary will be included.

Most excellent! The scariest critter i could find in the SC2 book was a polar bear, a Big Red uses them as snacks (love the cover btw.). How are the higher level monsters going to be handled without becomming unkillable?

Integration should be a snap. Some classes, such as the Scout, Explorer, Soldier, etc. are perfectly functional in FantasyCraft as is! A sneak peek of classic fantasy races should be appearing ahead of FantasyCraft as well for those interested just in adding them to a game (or doing Shadowrun, say ). If you're interested in DragonStar, I'd encourage you to take a look at Wyrmstone, the organized play campaign to be overviewed in FantasyCraft and launched at approximately the same time the book hits - it may be just your thing

I'll take a look at Wyrmstone, saw some posts in a sub forum on the Crafty forums. Reading that FC is 'just' another decade book makes it logical that all the other SC2 products are interchangeable, very nice!

FantasyCraft will not be a standalone product, but rather an expansion of the 2.0 rulebook toolkit. No reason to make people rebuy the core rules yet again. We have anticipated the faint possibility some people might be using it for Shadowrun with d20 rules, in fact

While some folks are being a bit negative about that bit of news, i think it's a good move, might even attract more SC2 players (and that is after all what you want). On the flip side, i doubt i could get my players to buy/read the SC2 and the FC book without getting them heavily involved in the game. While the SC2 book is pure gold for the GM minded reader, for the bussy practical player, it's a bit of a heavy tome to wade through. Chances are that i'll create an introductionary booklet to get the game started, just a few levels with stripped down skills, to wet the apetite. ;-) (just ignore the negativity on this board, most are still in shock over 4E ;-) Any actual plans for a Cyberpunk/Fantasy setting?

Thanks! We love doing the seminar every year - always a show highlight. It's good to hear people have been able to join us through the magic of the interweb!

A US trip is a bit expensive and the current customs policies scare the bejesus out of me, if those books get detained at customs, what might happen if I showed my face ;-) If you guys did podcasts i would actually tune in an listen, I find most podcasts extremely booring, even on subjects that really interest me (I prefer to read, it's often quicker, and i won't try to pull out hairs that i don't have).

 

[Ahzad]

If you guys did podcasts i would actually tune in an listen, I find most podcasts extremely booring, even on subjects that really interest me (I prefer to read, it's often quicker, and i won't try to pull out hairs that i don't have).

if you haven't heard yet the Crafty Seminar from Gen Con is available on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTyI1vyVu18

 

[solkan_uk]

I think what would be helpful would be a cheap "lite" version.

Boil down SC to it's bare essentials. With the SC2.0 book being so crunchy it would be hard to boil down, but you could drop quite a bit and still have a playable game.
Advocate, Explorer, Hacker, Sleuth & Snoop could be dropped (most concepts can exist with the other classes and some multiclass): Faceman, Intruder, Pointman, Scientist, Scout, Soldier, Wheelman leave us with a nice selection covering all the bases.

Ignore interests, subplots, contacts.

Remove Expert classes.

Strip down feats to some extent (particularly high requirements ones, and fairly specific situation ones).

Simplify gear, I don't mean the system, but if we can have a gun of each type at each calibre, strip out a load of vehicles, and so on.

Remove several actions (Kick, Tire etc)

Remove all Chapter 7, perhaps have a stripped down version of the NPC rules in there (i.e. as is, but only a few necessary qualities).

If you could boil all this down to a much smaller book, which contains enough to run FantasyCraft or whatever chosen setting, but still leave plenty of reason to upgrade to the full copy, it'd serve both crowds.

 

[johnnype]

Getting back to the original point of the thread I'd like to echo KoOS's sentiment where he stated

Given their inability to get products out in anything like a timely fashion, I can't help but wish that the Crafty guys would actually stick to supporting their stated core audience (i.e. people who want "d20 tuned for modern action gaming") and get previously announced stuff like Farthest Star, The Crucible and C:S out before deciding to reinvent the perfectly good wheel that is D&D.

Guys...seriously. One project at a time. I know it's difficult and at times a little boring to work on the same book for a prolonged period of time but I just don't get how you can all of a sudden say that Fantasy is your next project when you have been telling us about Farthest Start and ShatterPunk for so long and neither seems anywhere near completion.

I love your products to death and will buy Fantasy the moment it's published but consider me sorely disappointed that Farthest Star in still in limbo. Promises and reassurances stoped being effective long ago.