Feats - Improved!

ro

First Post
A few notes:

Athlete: an amazing feat for barbs that use frenzy, but honestly probably still in balance.

Cool!

Elemental adapt: I don't think the immunity drop is needed. It's now a very solid feat with everything else.

I'll consider that. There are a lot of creatures immune to certain types, especially poison. Reducing immunity makes your character not totally suck against them.

Mage slayer: I would like to take the magicness out of this. How about this:

As a reaction, make an attack roll against a spell targeting you. If the roll beats D.C. 10+spell level, the spell ends without effect.

Once you use this ability, you must take a long rest to use it again.

It's basically counterspelk, starts a little weaker, scales stronger, and not as magical


This is excellent, and really what I was going for originally. Here's a new version. I specify that you use a reaction, once per long rest, that you must be able to target the creature (e.g. make an attack), but you make an ability check rather than an attack roll, just like Counterspell; otherwise, this would be extremely powerful, more powerful (longer range) than even a 10th-level Abjuration Wizard's unique abilities, which would be at least a whole feat in value all on its own.

Mage Slayer
- Once per long rest, you may use your reaction to attempt to interrupt a creature you can target in the process of casting a spell. Use your attack ability to make an ability check against the spell. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a success, the creature’s spell fails and has no effect.
- When a creature that you can target casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make an attack against that creature.
- When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain its concentration.
- You have advantage on saving throws against spells cast by creatures within 5 feet of you.
 

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iamntbatman

First Post
I don't really understand, mechanically, what is happening there. For counterspell, you're swallowing their magic with magic of your own. What's happening with that feat, you're knocking away their hands from doing somatic components? Or something like that? What if the spell is vocal only? I think there needs to be some explanation of what is physically happening when you use that ability, otherwise it's just pure meta-mechanics.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Thanks for the detailed responses. If I don't mention something it's because I agree with your thinking and have nothing more to offer.

Athlete
- Once per day when you would gain a level of exhaustion, you may choose not to. You regain this ability after a long rest and ingesting some food and drink."

That's more potent then I was considering, but not out-of-line for a feat. I was picturing it just let you treat as one level less but you still needed to remove it. Plus if you went into a day with some levels and gained one more it would have an effect. But still, that works.

Mounted Combatant - would like to add one thing - size based shoving should be based on mount size, not your own.

I think this is covered with "You can make the roll to shove using either your own, or your mount’s ability." How might this be clarified?

Ah, I took "ability" as the game term "ability score". So you could use your STR or your mount's STR. A Warhorse only has an 18 STR, other mounts could be even less, especially if you are small. I think we're in agreement on mounts size counting, just making sure the wording conveys that.

This shortens the path to being a grappler to one feat from two. Do you think that both feats are good enough separately to justify a character spending +4 ASI to get them? According to @vonklaude's polling, they are very rarely taken.

Above I took your advice on Athlete and suggested changing it to advantage, and only after you take both Athletics and Acrobatics proficiencies. This should help mitigate this issue.[/quote]

Reasonable point - +4 ASI is a big deal. But...

Not getting taken often doesn't mean that the build that does focus on grappling is not powerful, just not common. With all that comes with being grappled (0 speed, which also means can't unprone, able to be moved, etc.), havign all of these extra chances to grapple someone seems just to take it a step too much. Compare extra attack where you use one attack to grapple and one attack to attack vs. a bonus action to grapple and then two attacks (with advantage) to attack. It's double the attacks plus a big chance extra to hit.


(Dungeon Delver)
Hm. Again, this is one that was almost never taken in the poll. The abilities added are mostly fluff from other feats that were almost never taken. The +1 ASI is notable, however. I personally don't think this feat is overpowered, and it was certainly underused before. What suggestions do you have for improving it? Would dropping the ASI solve the problem? (If you do drop it, that removes another feat from the options of Wis and Int characters who already have very, very few half-feats available to them.)

Oh no, leave the ASI. I'm more concerned that a rogue taking this will need serious adjustments in all traps and secret doors to keep them competitive. And the flip side - if someone does take it, the bar gets raised and anyone who has the skills via background or whatever but hasn't taken this has no chance to compete even though trained.

But you know what - there's so much focus on combat feats, if someone wants to really excel at part of the exploration pillar, let them. I withdraw my concerns.

Elemental Adept - you convinced me



There is at least one race or class feature that allows Con casting, which is why I opened it to this. I want the Mage Slayer feat to be for martials particularly, people who may very well have low Int/Wis/Chr. My thought is that the Counterspell is part of their attack.

What about this change:

- "You can cast Counterspell once per long rest without expending a spell slot. You must be able to target the creature with an attack or spell: your spellcasting ability for Counterspell is the ability you would use to attack or cast a spell at this creature."

Oh this I like. Now it fits. Good with it.

Though as an alternative, how about "Once per long rest you may use your reaction to attack a creature casting a spell. If you hit, they must make a Concentration save at disadvantage or the spell is not cast."

In other words, bring it back to an actual attack that does damage, and treats it like a spell that takes multiple rounds to cast (PHB pg 202) which is this edition's only interrupt spellcasting mechanic. Replaces the Counterspell roll with a too hit roll, and has the advantage of doing damage and really matching the mechanics to the in-game narrative.

(Or not, I'm fine with what you have.)


"Magic Initiate
- Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class’s spell list. As you increase in character level, you learn the following spells from this list:
- At 4th level, one 1st-level spell.
- At 8th level, one 2nd-level spell.
- At 12th level, one 3rd-level spell.
- At 16th level, one 4th-level spell.
- When you gain a level, you may replace any spell you know from this feat with another from the list of the same level. You may not change these spells otherwise.
- You also gain one spell slot which can be regained after a long rest. Its level matches the level of the highest spell you know from this feat, and it can be used for any spell you know or have prepared of that level or lower.
- These spells do not count against the number of spells you know or can prepare. If these spells have the ritual tag, you may cast them as rituals.
- These spells are associated with the class of your choice--e.g. if you are a Barbarian, they are Barbarian spells for you. Your spellcasting ability for these spells is Charisma, Wisdom, or Intelligence (your choice)."

Brilliant. I like your solution to scaling better then my own.

With the single slot, does that come in at 4th (because variant humans could start with this feat but no spells known). "Starting at 4th level, ..."


(Savage Attacker)
But it applies to all attacks on a turn. Is the rogue and paladin nova potential significantly greater than that of other characters?

This is inspired by the Channel Divinity of the Tempest Cleric, but it does not scale as Channel Divinity does.

If you limit nova damage to dice only and eliminate all static damage (because this only affects dice), then yes I think rogue or paladin can nova much more than anyone else.

Fighter 11 w/ 2d6 weapon: 3 attacks, 2d6 (avg 7) becomes 12. 15 HPs increase on average.

Rogue 11 w/ d6 shortswords fighting two weapon and 6d6 SA: 2 attacks: d6 (3.5) + once per round 6d6 (21) = 28. Maxed=38. Increase 20 damage. (Hmm, I would have expected this to be higher.)

Paladin 11 w/ 2d6 weapon and Divine Smite: 2 attacks: 2d6 (7) + d8 (4.5) (improved divine smite) + 3d8 (13.5) (divine smite slot) = 50 avg damage. Maxed=88. Increase 38 damage. AND that's with 2nd level slots used for divine smite, but if you know they are going to be maximized why not go for 3rd level slots.

Again, this is just the maximization effect. Fighters adding ability score damage three times will increase their total more than a rogue adding it once (assuming no two weapon fighting style). It's not saying any are weaker or more powerful (paladin uses up daily resources to do that), just that maximizing all attack damage helps some classes more than others.

Okay, so my math show me to be partially wrong. Rogues should be able to take advantage to keep their damage on par with the increases others get. But the Divine Smite brought paladins too far ahead. If they just had weapon and their always on Improved Divine Smite then it would be okay.


Thanks a great deal for taking the time to go through my feedback in such a thorough manner. It's been really constructive.
 

ro

First Post
I don't really understand, mechanically, what is happening there. For counterspell, you're swallowing their magic with magic of your own. What's happening with that feat, you're knocking away their hands from doing somatic components? Or something like that? What if the spell is vocal only? I think there needs to be some explanation of what is physically happening when you use that ability, otherwise it's just pure meta-mechanics.

Sure, we can add some descriptive text:

"- Once per long rest, you may use your reaction to attempt to stop a creature you can target from casting a spell by attacking it while it is trying to use the spell's components, causing it to forget a word, drop a crucial component, or gesture erratically. Use your attack ability to make an ability check against the spell. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a success, the creature’s spell fails and has no effect."
 

Stalker0

Legend
Though as an alternative, how about "Once per long rest you may use your reaction to attack a creature casting a spell. If you hit, they must make a Concentration save at disadvantage or the spell is not cast."

I think this is also good, it really depends on which archetype you are going for.

1) The warrior as interrupting the spellcaster by getting in this face. I think the version above is a great way to reflect that.

2) The warrior being able to knock magic away with his blade: Then I like the other version where you use an attack roll (or a strength/dex based ability check) that functions like a counterspell.
 

ro

First Post
Thanks for the detailed responses. If I don't mention something it's because I agree with your thinking and have nothing more to offer.

Got it.

Athlete
That's more potent then I was considering, but not out-of-line for a feat. I was picturing it just let you treat as one level less but you still needed to remove it. Plus if you went into a day with some levels and gained one more it would have an effect. But still, that works.

Yeah, I thought about it that way, too, but I think it all evens out in the end. Simply treating it as one level less is nearly the same as the long rest will still cure you of a level, just as this ability resets. One other consequence with that wording is that you have to clarify that there can be 8 levels of exhaustion: otherwise at the max level, level 7 = death, you would treat it at 6 and be un-killable by exhaustion. But yes, you could go into the day with levels and then ignore the next level: you may decide, "Hey, I'm ok with levels 1 and 2, but level 3 is too much. I'm resisting!" I'm not sure that in matters which order you do things in.

Mounted Combatant
Ah, I took "ability" as the game term "ability score". So you could use your STR or your mount's STR. A Warhorse only has an 18 STR, other mounts could be even less, especially if you are small. I think we're in agreement on mounts size counting, just making sure the wording conveys that.

I see! There is ambiguity then. How about one of these?:

1) "You can make the roll to shove using either your own, or your mount’s ability and size."
2) "You can make the roll to shove using either your own, or your mount’s characteristics."
3) "You can make the roll to shove using either your own, or your mount’s statistics."

Brawler
Reasonable point - +4 ASI is a big deal. But...

Not getting taken often doesn't mean that the build that does focus on grappling is not powerful, just not common. With all that comes with being grappled (0 speed, which also means can't unprone, able to be moved, etc.), havign all of these extra chances to grapple someone seems just to take it a step too much. Compare extra attack where you use one attack to grapple and one attack to attack vs. a bonus action to grapple and then two attacks (with advantage) to attack. It's double the attacks plus a big chance extra to hit.

Ah, but you can't use your bonus action to grapple until after you have used an attack and hit the target. That limits some of the craziness. So you gain one attack, but it is not with advantage. Similarly, you cannot pin the creature on that same turn, as that requires a full action. Unless you Action Surge, but it had to be an unarmed strike to get the bonus action, so you are already likely not maximizing damage.

If the biggest problem is the advantage, you could change:
"- You have advantage on attack rolls against a creature you are grappling."
to:
"- You ignore disadvantage on attack rolls against a creature you have pinned."
This in effect gives you advantage against the pinned creature, but not a merely grappled creature.

Dungeon Delver
Oh no, leave the ASI. I'm more concerned that a rogue taking this will need serious adjustments in all traps and secret doors to keep them competitive. And the flip side - if someone does take it, the bar gets raised and anyone who has the skills via background or whatever but hasn't taken this has no chance to compete even though trained.

But you know what - there's so much focus on combat feats, if someone wants to really excel at part of the exploration pillar, let them. I withdraw my concerns.

I appreciate your concerns and your compromise, and I will be wary to consider them if there are future revisions.

Elemental Adept - you convinced me

Yay!

Mage Slayer
Oh this I like. Now it fits. Good with it.

Though as an alternative, how about "Once per long rest you may use your reaction to attack a creature casting a spell. If you hit, they must make a Concentration save at disadvantage or the spell is not cast."

In other words, bring it back to an actual attack that does damage, and treats it like a spell that takes multiple rounds to cast (PHB pg 202) which is this edition's only interrupt spellcasting mechanic. Replaces the Counterspell roll with a too hit roll, and has the advantage of doing damage and really matching the mechanics to the in-game narrative.

(Or not, I'm fine with what you have.)

I think my wording definitely needs some simplification: the mechanic is there, but he wording is not.

I did see a suggestion elsewhere about a simple attack, but that disadvantage which comes from the rest of the feat anyway seems too good. I don't want this feat to overshadow a 10th level Abjuration Wizard.


Mage Slayer
-- When a creature that you can target casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make an attack against that creature.
- Once per long rest, you may use your reaction attack to attempt to stop the spell from being cast. Rather than rolling for the attack, use your attack ability to make an ability check against the spell. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a success, the creature’s spell fails and has no effect.
- When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain its concentration.
- You have advantage on saving throws against spells cast by creatures within 5 feet of you.

Magic Initiate
Brilliant. I like your solution to scaling better then my own.

With the single slot, does that come in at 4th (because variant humans could start with this feat but no spells known). "Starting at 4th level, ..."[/b]

Thanks! Yes, a variant human would not have a spell slot by virtue of having no 1st-level spell. I could clarify that.

Savage Attacker
If you limit nova damage to dice only and eliminate all static damage (because this only affects dice), then yes I think rogue or paladin can nova much more than anyone else.

Fighter 11 w/ 2d6 weapon: 3 attacks, 2d6 (avg 7) becomes 12. 15 HPs increase on average.

Rogue 11 w/ d6 shortswords fighting two weapon and 6d6 SA: 2 attacks: d6 (3.5) + once per round 6d6 (21) = 28. Maxed=38. Increase 20 damage. (Hmm, I would have expected this to be higher.)

Paladin 11 w/ 2d6 weapon and Divine Smite: 2 attacks: 2d6 (7) + d8 (4.5) (improved divine smite) + 3d8 (13.5) (divine smite slot) = 50 avg damage. Maxed=88. Increase 38 damage. AND that's with 2nd level slots used for divine smite, but if you know they are going to be maximized why not go for 3rd level slots.

Again, this is just the maximization effect. Fighters adding ability score damage three times will increase their total more than a rogue adding it once (assuming no two weapon fighting style). It's not saying any are weaker or more powerful (paladin uses up daily resources to do that), just that maximizing all attack damage helps some classes more than others.

Okay, so my math show me to be partially wrong. Rogues should be able to take advantage to keep their damage on par with the increases others get. But the Divine Smite brought paladins too far ahead. If they just had weapon and their always on Improved Divine Smite then it would be okay.

The PHB feat rerolls damage every turn. Over several encounters, that should add up quite a lot. I was hoping that this mechanic would roughly even out, and be more interesting. As written it would also benefit spellcasters. I am not sure what way to go with this feat.

Thanks a great deal for taking the time to go through my feedback in such a thorough manner. It's been really constructive.

Thank you for your feedback! I appreciate constructive conversation and compromise. We're working out how to make the game better and balanced. It takes teamwork!
 

ro

First Post
I think this is also good, it really depends on which archetype you are going for.

1) The warrior as interrupting the spellcaster by getting in this face. I think the version above is a great way to reflect that.

2) The warrior being able to knock magic away with his blade: Then I like the other version where you use an attack roll (or a strength/dex based ability check) that functions like a counterspell.

I think I was picturing 1), but the image of 2) is cooler. Mechanically, I prefer the Counterspell style as I fear that a straight attack roll would be significantly stronger than an Abjurer's 10th level ability, which is already awesome. A newbie v. human with Mage Slayer should not rival an expert wizard. Possibly there should even be a level requirement on the feat, as Counterspell usually isn't available until level 5.
 

Thurmas

Explorer
Crossbow Expert - v1
- You ignore the loading quality of crossbows and blowguns with which you are proficient.
- Once per turn, being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attacks.
- When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a one handed light ranged weapon you are holding as if two-weapon fighting.
- You may use two-handed ranged weapons when holding a shield. Your shield hand is free for spellcasting.
- When you attack a creature at close range, you may use a bonus action to give that creature disadvantage on opportunity attacks against you this turn.



Crossbow Expert - v2
- You ignore the loading quality of crossbows and blowguns with which you are proficient.
- You can reload a ranged weapon while holding a light weapon or shield in your other hand.
- Your shield hand is free for firing two handed ranged weapons and spellcasting.
- When two-weapon fighting you may use one handed ranged weapons, and you may use a single ranged weapon as if it were two.

- Once per turn, being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attacks.
- When you attack a creature within 5 feet of you, you may use a bonus action to give that creature disadvantage on opportunity attacks against you this turn.

Really, really not a fan of the holding a shield. It's too generic. I could see doing it with a hand crossbow, a blow gun, maybe even a light crossbow. But there is no way you could pull it off with a short or long bow. Just the nature of using a shield means you are holding it with your hand, making it impossible to also hold and fire a bow. It would also just get in the way generally speaking.
 

ro

First Post
If you want an attack roll, here's the math:

Counterspell is an ability check. With spellcasting ability maxed at +5, against a level 9 spell the DC is 10 + 9 = 19, and you need to roll 19 - 5 is 14 to counter it.

In comparison, an attacker would also need to roll a 14. At level 17, attack roll is roll + mod=5 + prof=6, and you can get a +3 weapon, and a fighting style (archery?) for another +2. You may have other bonuses. We would have to specify no advantage as well. This adds up to roll + 5+6+3+2 = roll +16. If you need a minimum roll of 14, the DC is 14 + 16 = 30.

So, for this feat to match Counterspell, it should be an attack roll against a DC of 21 + spell level.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I think I was picturing 1), but the image of 2) is cooler. Mechanically, I prefer the Counterspell style as I fear that a straight attack roll would be significantly stronger than an Abjurer's 10th level ability, which is already awesome. A newbie v. human with Mage Slayer should not rival an expert wizard. Possibly there should even be a level requirement on the feat, as Counterspell usually isn't available until level 5.

The one little fringe benefit of using a Str/Dex based ability check....is it actually gives a Champion with Remarkable Athlete something else to use that bonus on!

I personally think its fine to allow the ability at 1st level. I mean you have decided to become an excellent counterer of spells in exchange for all of the other cool feats you could have chosen (including many of the cool ones on this list). And your not strictly better than an expert wizard with this version. Sure you can do it sooner, but a wizard with the spell automatically succeeds against 3rd level spells and lower...that should not be discounted.
 

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