Feats: PHB vs Essentials

[Smurtis]

Weapon/implement Focus feats:

(I apologize for not having the exact feat names in the essential books, for i do not have them in hand)

From what i understand, this feat provides a player with a +1 bonus to hit with the chosen weapon/implement group. The bonus increases by +1 at 15th and again at 25th level. I always thought this was quite odd (why not 11th and 21st?)... Then, essentials came out and the new book shows the exact same feat with a new name, providing the same bonuses, BUT having the bonuses increase at the start of each new tier (lvl 11 and 21)...

In my group, there is a split decision as to how to proceed with this. One side simply says we must use the "retrain" aspect of the game when we gain a level in order to move over to the "new" feat. The other side is to simply treat this as an upgrade or errata from the PHB, and freely update our characters automatically and freely...

Also, a similar issue would be for the increased defenses feat (i cant recall the names of the feat)...

the PHB feat provides the character with +1 defenses to reflex, fort and will defenses. The exact same feat (different name) in Essentials provides the same bonus, but also upgrades the bonus by an additional +1 PER TIER (where as the feat in the PHB is a static bonus, unchanged beyond the tier levels)...

Can someone explain how they're handling this change?

Thanks in advance for your help...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

let them retrain at the moment. It is an update of those feats.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, I am not using essentials feats.

But for your game, I would either let them retrain, if you like slower changes, or do an essentials-bum someday when they can retrain everything to essentials style. I have used both methods successfully in my games. If they want a lot of essentials stuff I would use the second option.

 

[twilsemail]

Weapon/implement Focus feats:

(I apologize for not having the exact feat names in the essential books, for i do not have them in hand)

I think you mean the Expertise feats from PHB2. Weapon Focus (PHB) is just bonus damage for a weapon group.

From what i understand, this feat provides a player with a +1 bonus to hit with the chosen weapon/implement group. The bonus increases by +1 at 15th and again at 25th level. I always thought this was quite odd (why not 11th and 21st?)... Then, essentials came out and the new book shows the exact same feat with a new name, providing the same bonuses, BUT having the bonuses increase at the start of each new tier (lvl 11 and 21)...

The 15/25 bumps were bandaids for a math error made in the early stages of 4e's life. The error never got fixed in the rules so they added a feat to cover for it. There's a ton of analysis on the error out there. You can find it if your Google Fu is strong.

In my group, there is a split decision as to how to proceed with this. One side simply says we must use the "retrain" aspect of the game when we gain a level in order to move over to the "new" feat. The other side is to simply treat this as an upgrade or errata from the PHB, and freely update our characters automatically and freely...

That's mostly a call from your group. I would side with the latter half. Generally new rules are a good excuse for retraining.

Also, a similar issue would be for the increased defenses feat (i cant recall the names of the feat)...

the PHB feat provides the character with +1 defenses to reflex, fort and will defenses. The exact same feat (different name) in Essentials provides the same bonus, but also upgrades the bonus by an additional +1 PER TIER (where as the feat in the PHB is a static bonus, unchanged beyond the tier levels)...

The Essentials feats are also available a tier earlier. In the end, them being available sooner doesn't ruin the game at all, it's a feat slot that they're dedicating to defense instead of offense and the utility of that decision depends wholly on their build and concept.

Can someone explain how they're handling this change?

Thanks in advance for your help...

The new feats are just that, mostly. Most feats in HotF* are new feats with new names. The ones that aren't are considered errata by WotC. The expertise feats, specifically, are new feats. They are 100% better than the generic in every case, but they're new and not meant to replace the old options.

I hope this was helpful in some way.

 

[Mengu]

I gave expertise out for free at level 5. For the moment I'm sticking with the pre-essentials 15/25 progression. When they publish expertise feats for holy symbol, dagger implement, totem, tome, ki focus, etc. and cover all the bases, I'll probably let the players freely upgrade to those feats for the essentials progression and additional benefit, without requiring a retrain. Until then, the most important thing is to keep everyone on an even playing field, and since 3 out of 6 of my players would not gain the essentials expertise benefits, I'm holding off on the upgrades.

 

[Pickles JG]

I am letting players freely retrain into the new feats. But than again I allow full retraining at every level or even session anyway so that's probably not informative.

In general the old PHB1/2 feats are too weak (defence) or too good (offence). The new defence feats are OK but pretty much compuslory, though you might or might not want the superior versions. Adding flavour riders to expertise allows a choice in taking them (one is still pretty mcuh mandatory but you can pick which one you have*)


*actually you can't - loads of characters will have only one sensible choice.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

There just needs to be a generic implement expertise for every implement with a very minor benefit like the master at arms feat for wepons.

 

[Aulirophile]

Worth noting that Improved Defenses is only 1 better then Paragon Defense which is then retrained into Robust Defenses, which is what people used to do. Unless you were in one of those, quite sensible, groups who give out expertise and paragon/robust for free (just like the developer's home games). My group also gives out one of the epic NAD feats for free to whichever is your lowest NAD, then bans the rest. Works out really well.

 

[BobTheNob]

I banned the Epic Defence feats as soon as I read them. Now that defence feats teir up, Im for WOTC reviewing old feats for their relevance (come to think of it, I wish they would retire a crap load of feats that arent relevant any more...but wow, what a forum war that would start!)

To the OP, I let players retrain free when the rules shift under their feet(feat?) all the time. For instance, when we started playing, martial power was the only power source book out their, so non martial players were at a disadvantage because they had a smaller range of options. As soon as arcane power and divine power came out, I allowed players 3 free retrains (there had to be some limit).

Another example is "Human resolve" (I think thats the name) which gives humans a +1 to saves. Now with HOTFL we have "Resolve" which gives +2 to saves and you dont need to be human, making the old human feat utterly irrelevant (again, WOTC, clean up the crap and get rid of crappy old feat please...Im sick of searching through them)

 

[Cyronax]

Another example is "Human resolve" (I think thats the name) which gives humans a +1 to saves. Now with HOTFL we have "Resolve" which gives +2 to saves and you dont need to be human, making the old human feat utterly irrelevant (again, WOTC, clean up the crap and get rid of crappy old feat please...Im sick of searching through them)

I kind of like the idea that a Human could take both feats at 1st level and have a +3 to saves right away. Add those feats with Stubborn Survivor (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide) at 2nd level and a Human could then have a +5 to saves when they're out of actions points.

That's an extreme case, but I have seen enough of my players take that approach to playing Humans that I wouldn't want to take that away from them.

For the cost of three feats it is still powerful, but then again some races have pretty extreme save bonuses. Warforged can 'take 10' on death saves for instance.

C.I.D.