Feign Death Practice -- level 8 ... ummmm Why???

[Garthanos]

I also found a ritual (from Dragon Mag 385) called "Death Like Visage" that does a feign death like deception at level 6 in spite of the benefits being incredibly narrow, its still more potent than the practice, sigh.

It is a wierd one with no component cost aside from the need to be wearing a particular amulet (take off the amulet the effect ends implying the amulet isn't even expended during working the ritual)... so even if we just translated feign death to a martial version of it, we have 2 levels lower than the practice and no healing surge cost and no mention of someone noticing you might be alive.

Nor do I think it is totally appropriate either just that I thought it needed mentioned regardless.

There are indeed many many totally "all over the map rituals/practices with regards to usefulness and level. I guess I missed how sloppy they had been treated. It's a bit like they weren't powers so they didnt consider balance.

I am wondering if this problem was so big in the players handbook rituals or if it occurred during later edition creep? hmmm

 

[MoutonRustique]

Seeing the 4th level magic ritual : yeah, make the martial one the same level, with the same duration - also, Healing makes more sense than Diplomacy...

 

[Garthanos]

For me the core action of faking you are dead is fairly basic thing and could be accomplished with a bluff skill check pull out your disguise kit for +2 you might even make wounds look more extreme etc, this could in theory be more authentic at first glance than someone in a trance!!!! it might be significantly less likely to be investigated. If it was part of a skill challenge spend a healing surge to remain inert when your body gets kicked and a bit abused by ruffians as their "go to" test of whether you are really dead or just carelessness for the dead. And get an auto success on the challenge.

 

[Garthanos]

Damn ok so Alter Ego is also getting its level dropped, sigh ... how they think these things are on par with raising the dead I will never understand.

 

[Garthanos]

After looking at the Players Handbook rituals only I am more confident they took some time and consideration on attempts to decide what level those should be.... and many subsequent rituals (as well as the Practices) were kind of thrown into place. That actually makes me feel a little better.

 

[Garthanos]

Seeing the 4th level magic ritual : yeah, make the martial one the same level, with the same duration - also, Healing makes more sense than Diplomacy...

Level 4 looks to be the target indeed - I am assuming we can offset the concept limits enough that it isnt almost always just plain better to do the ritual.

While I could see hypnotizing your ally into a trance using diplomacy as entirely plausible it starts to border on Arcane in feel where as using healing even when less realistic (such as the accupressure strike) can be pretty martial

An alternative that feels very healer skill, might be for instance.
There is a token cost to let you concoct a medical depressant with a component cost in GP that will help the ally or even you entering the trance (forgo this token cost if the subject knows the the normal Trance martial practice for sleeping) AND make a healing surge cost which is actually spent only if you pull out of the state ahead of time... ie the bigger cost is a heroic exertion of will to overcome the state. I like that idea a lot.

 

[Garthanos]

My current horribly verbose Feign Death - maybe @Tony Vargas has affected my designing.

 

[Garthanos]

Note a key difference in this Feign Death and Delay Affliction is in that FD affects all afflictions on the person however you are pretty out of it and to come back in when you most need it you are spending a combat resource. In other words there are strategic and tactical choices involved even if you had both abilities available and situations for which both are useful.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Frankly, I'd just make a level 2 or 3 practice that lets you pretend to be dead. You can invoke it at any time with a minute of preparation (so you can't just do it in the midst of combat, but you could plausibly do it during a short rest, which could have quite a few uses). That's all it does, it just lets you 'play dead' with a significant chance of pulling it off (whereas your average random PC is going to have to hope to pass a Bluff check vs Perception). It can even pass an examination by someone using Heal, though you'd need a check to pull that off (IE if a healer examines you for 5 minutes then there's an opposed check or whatever). Maybe you can keep this up for 8 hours, maybe longer if you want to spend an HS.

This keeps it simple and if you want other more elaborate effects then you can make those higher level practices. If you want you could roll them into one practice with gradated effects depending on your check, which is an OK way to do it, but its kind of nice to leave some things for later levels.

As for 4e <> 1e level equality. I equate level 10 of 4e to about level 5 to 7 of 1e, a character is now distinctly beyond the range of normal people, potentially surviving things that would be certain death, defeating large numbers of foes (a level 6 fighter should be able to off 20 or 30 goblins for instance with a bit of luck, or a couple ogres, or a hill giant). 'EPIC' pretty much kicks in around level 14 where 1e basically 'goes gonzo' with level 7 spells and such appearing that can bend reality and do other wondrous things. I'd consider level 18 or 20 to be equivalent to level 30 in 4e, there's really no point in advancing beyond this, nor do any published materials ever really mention NPCs beyond level 20 (there are a few greater gods that have level 25 equivalence).

As you can see, it isn't really a linear equivalence, but dividing 4e level by 2 kinda gets you close, though maybe a level offset helps too.

 

[Garthanos]

Frankly, I'd just make a level 2 or 3 practice that lets you pretend to be dead.

There is a level 2 potion that lets you grow the ear points and height and build of an elf its impressively close to boom you are an elf in all appearance including someone pulling on your ears and so on.

Boom you look convincingly dead at level 2 is entirely reasonable if all you want is to look dead

Arguably I described that without a practice version of feigning death right here.

For me the core action of faking you are dead is fairly basic thing and could be accomplished with a bluff skill check pull out your disguise kit for +2 you might even make wounds look more extreme etc, this could in theory be more authentic at first glance than someone in a trance!!!! it might be significantly less likely to be investigated. If it was part of a skill challenge spend a healing surge to remain inert when your body gets kicked and a bit abused by ruffians as their "go to" test of whether you are really dead or just carelessness for the dead. And get an auto success on the challenge.

A level 2 item which all it did was a self only good bluff based on a different skill than bluff could still be ok. (I suppose you could still induce this in others either with a heal check or a diplomacy)

Though once you see it as actually reducing the need to breath and slowing and stopping heart beat I see it as very much moving in to the suppress needs and afflictions arena and level 4.

Then if we wanted Stasis Trance or Death Trance as a level 4 thing which you would also put all conditions on hold could be separated out and have Feign Death as a prerequisite is that kind of what you are thinking? Or make the level 4 effect a note on the level 2 version?

As for 4e <> 1e level equality. I equate level 10 of 4e to about level 5 to 7 of 1e, a character is now

l estimate a level 10 from 4e higher in 4e - paragon and named level 8 or 9 serving the same marker points seem a definite correlation to me.

distinctly beyond the range of normal people, potentially surviving things that would be certain death, defeating large numbers of foes (a level 6 fighter should be able to off 20 or 30 goblins for instance with a bit of luck, or a couple ogres, or a hill giant). 'EPIC' pretty much kicks in around level 14 where 1e basically 'goes gonzo' with level 7 spells and such appearing that can bend reality and do other wondrous things. I'd consider level 18 or 20 to be equivalent to level 30 in 4e, there's really no point in advancing beyond this, nor do any published materials ever really mention NPCs beyond level 20 (there are a few greater gods that have level 25 equivalence).

As you can see, it isn't really a linear equivalence, but dividing 4e level by 2 kinda gets you close, though maybe a level offset helps too.

Looks like we agree more than you realize ie yes divide by two with an offset gets very close (that is linear)

level 30 from 4e becomes level 17 or 18 (approx maxed out)
level 21 from 4e becomes level 14 (gonzo epic begins)
level 11 from 4e becomes level 9 (named level)
level 1 from 4e becomes level 4 (level of feels competent)

AND level 1 from 1e becomes a minions downed in one hit which are not really recommend for players in 4e.