[FFD20] Let's Mass our Forces, and Rebuild our Power

[Creamsteak]

Welcome back, everyone:
brunoaraujo@resenet.com.br, drake_masters@juno.com, mcconnellm@missouri.edu, TN123086@aol.com, Motorbattery@aol.com, malroth00@yahoo.com, maiko_ekisha@yahoo.com, hierarch_leviticus@hotmail.com, jynxterlynx21@hotmail.com, reaver_13@hotmail.com, akomainyu@hotmail.com, jedigh@rcn.com, oni_no_baka@yahoo.com, jlschafer1@charter.net, edelaith@wideopenwest.com, festy_dog69@hotmail.com, korey@nandgate.com, hal@mysticeyegames.com, jarvalf@yahoo.co.uk, warwickhotel@in.com.au, olifran@gmx.de, mario.bolzoni@katamail.com, hoodyfrickinhoo@yahoo.com, macbrea@hotmail.com, Motorbattery@aol.com, fan_vader@hotmail.com, jbekkum@ehvn.nl, rom_arendonk@yahoo.com, kevin@kulp.org, redwing_the_wizard@hotmail.com, sargonthesorceror@yahoo.com, NinjaTurtleSam@aol.com, ecaf99@hotmail.com, whisper_the_tiefling@yahoo.com, nukemuntiltheyglow@hotmail.com, wronald1@yahoo.com, WilliamWronald@aol.com, esupaladin_03@yahoo.com, dietcokeofevil86@hotmail.com, afterlife0@hotmail.com, Genysys@msn.com, crimsonogre@yahoo.com, foamymocha@hotmail.com, Benjamin.Landman@hood.army.mil, evilpsychojoe@yahoo.com, david_rittenour@hotmail.com, darkize9@msn.com, asmodean2525@aol.com, daredevil0888@hotmail.com, Jalthoff1853@aol.com, assbern@hotmail.com, gradin@zdh.com, amtaweapon@hotmail.com, draxton@hotmail.com, akimbo_legs@hotmail.com, battousai@comcast.net, JOSHUA.LIEBMANN@maine.edu, ddkgaav@hotmail.com, jhamilton@digitaldark.net, bob_hayter@yahoo.com, hiro_sama00@hotmail.com, draviticus@hotmail.com, graydoom@hotmail.com, animage58@hotmail.com, akunin@cwnet.com, gte750u@mail.gatech.edu, draendraen@hotmail.com, Chaotica500@aol.com, christopherlongair@sympatico.ca, garmazabe@hotmail.com, deagol85@juno.com, demon_wings21@hotmail.com, derrickthecleric@yahoo.com, kcasar@swirvemail.com, igbutton@yahoo.com, chronokill@yahoo.com, beruche@bubbledragon.net, drakness1012@hotmail.com, Crocodilus23@aol.com, alacure@ranmamail.com, green_spider@seanbaby.com, clandestine@hfx.eastlink.ca, goofoffboy@hotmail.com, chriscp@mindspring.com, jack_daniel_327@yahoo.com, endiku76@twcny.rr.com, donnyb83@hotmail.com, nathangoretski@hotmail.com, marines@bravofleet.org, skarnkailw@hotmail.com, swordsman1612@hotmail.com, ras_thavas@hotmail.com, azrael548@hotmail.com, kjs0010@stic.net, Tartaros2@aol.com, quatregwpilot@cs.com, morlass@hotmail.com, lanaka7@yahoo.com, unitsinc@hotmail.com, nuklearman@hotmail.com, steelajb@hotmail.com, thedemonangelic@hotmail.com, tabarry@trbarry.com, korey@nandgate.com, Lufia1023@aol.com, niina.hakala@saunalahti.fi, mukalism@yahoo.com, nicd@iserv.net, tarion@hotmail.com, spectralwolf70@yahoo.com, Nezzie43@aol.com, michaelbelrose@hotmail.com, phoenix_iic@yahoo.com, parallelogon@yahoo.com, superfluousbubbles@yahoo.com, whisper_the_tiefling@yahoo.com, kent@wayson.net, Nadazdy@hotmail.com, kolhell@aol.com, Saber@CoolRio.com, sha_radun@yahoo.com, yaaz@earthlink.net, njkraut@u.washington.edu, deeahchur@hotmail.com, imperatorperpetvo@yahoo.com, gregthegamer@mchsi.com, paladinofpelor@yahoo.ca, aethernaut@earthlink.net, Sephiroth2@vampirethemasquerade.com

For those of you that are not sure what your looking at, just yet, allow me to explain. About two years ago, I think, I went looking over the internet for a website that was devoted to Final Fantasy role-playing games. I found the returners, which is a percentile based game that copies final fantasy's mechanics and fundamentals quite well. I also found a website that insisted that they had a Tactics RPG, but it happened to be a much more war-game like system. I think I may have also stumbled upon Kamikaze Midget's website, which wasn't nearly as informative as it now is. I decided that I'd have to do it myself...

Well, my work came to three seperate results. The best of which was this (also hosted here). I was proud that Brian posted my little piece on his website, which was nice of him and I love him for it, but really the only reason I posted the incomplete work was to attract help. Most of you that are reading this have come from that motion to attract some prospective aids. I tried to cut the crop down and ended up with about 3 people that I actively worked with. Sadly one of them dissappeared completely, another stayed on but eventually our ideas were too different, and the third is still with us today.

I've decided that it's about time I get my sorry self out of my slump (albeit very late, I've had the last two months to do this), and get to work. But, problem is, all my work seems rather crappy at this point. I've decided that FFTD20 doesn't work. FFD20, however, is stronger. A system of tiered prestige classes works for a video game, but not a role-playing game. Role-playing games are supposed to move a bit slower, but have a great deal more depth and options, in my experience. So, first off, I'm changing my basic approaches.

I'm going to start by using the Class/Prestige class system that's used by DnD and a great number of other systems (including the brand new Warcraft RPG, and the Everquest RPG, that I look to as justifications that what I want should be forged). For this, I need to decide which classes (taken from all of the FF games that use classes, those being I, IV, V, VI, and Tactics) are core classes and which are PRCs. I'd like to have 20 classes with 6 racial variants and a number of 'split path' class choices (similar to the 3.5 ranger).

So let's work together on this, shall we? No need to get involved if your not interested, and of course I'm very particular and plan to do all the final editing and choosing myself, but I think that the only way I'm going to get what I want, is with others help.

The first question of the order is about the general set-up of the classes... From memory, the classes in the FF chains are

Archer
Bard
Berserker
Black Wizard
Blue Wizard
Calculator
Caller
Chemist
Dancer
Dark Knight
Dragoon
Engineer
Geomancer
Knight
Mediator
Mimic
Monk
Mystic Knight
Ninja
Oracle
Paladin
Red Wizard
Samurai
Summoner
Thief
Time Wizard
White Wizard
Roughly 10 more Unique classes from Final Fantasy Tactics...
And a Few classes that can be derived from Final Fantasy VI...



So which classes can be folded into each other, which classes are most fitting as Prestige classes, and what other ideas does anyone have. If you have any interesting thoughts, just speak up... but if you would please limit ideas to 1 major idea per post, that would make my replies to you much easier to make.

 

[Creamsteak]

One thing that I was thinking about was Rydia from FFIV. She gave up her healing magic when she was living in the monsters world. I'm thinking that a caller would be an interesting way to approach a summoner that has given up one spell-casting class to make thier summoning magic more powerful. I think that would add another option to play...

To give a general synopsis of where I'm at right now, I'm trying to figure out how many classes I have, and how many of those are PrC or Core classes. I'm slightly concerned with 'split classes'. To give an example of that, I'm considering Cyan from Final Fantasy VI to be a samurai, but he wouldn't have the same primary chain of powers as a samurai from Final Fantasy Tactics. Rather, he would follow his own sort of Swordtech, but his supporting abilities from the class would be the same as other Samurai.

My feelings on the matter are that the Fighter/Warrior, Thief, Black Belt/Monk, White Mage, Black Mage, Bard, Dragoon, Geomancer, Chemist, Archer, Berserker, Time Mage, and Oracle are obviously core classes. The Blue Mage, Red Mage, Engineer, Knight/Paladin, Ninja, Samurai, Caller/Summoner, and Dancer could be PrCs or Core classes... but the debate going on in my head about every class is keeping me from putting pen to paper on anything.

Oh, and I know that I emailed everyone on my mailing list. That doesn't mean that your going to be emailed ever again, rather, I deleted my old mailing list to start all over again. If you think that you'd like to be active, email me and I'll put you on the list. And please, if your not familiar with this messegeboard, it's the greatest one on earth. Register! It's free, informative, and friendly.

 

[TheTenken]

I'm slightly concerned with 'split classes'. To give an example of that, I'm considering Cyan from Final Fantasy VI to be a samurai, but he wouldn't have the same primary chain of powers as a samurai from Final Fantasy Tactics. Rather, he would follow his own sort of Swordtech, but his supporting abilities from the class would be the same as other Samurai.

That problem is easily settled by adding more prestige classes. Cyan is obviously not a normal Samurai, just like how Sabin isn't a normal Monk. Perhaps it'd be easier to just build more prestige classes instead of making character specific abilities.

I would picture Cyan's class as being a high level PrC. I'd call it Retainer, gain special sword attacks as you gain levels in the PrC, and the details can be set from there.

The Blue Mage, Red Mage, Engineer, Knight/Paladin, Ninja, Samurai, Caller/Summoner, and Dancer could be PrCs or Core classes...

Blue Mage- Honestly I've been wanting this class made for a long time, also I don't know how to go about tackling it. I think it would be a PrC though and to include a BlueMage in the system you'd also have to create BlueMage abilities to learn from monsters.

RedMage- A Core Class that gets both Black and White magic spells but only up to a certain level in each.

Engineer- A campaign specific PrC. Perhaps skill bonuses as you level, specifically UseMagicDevice...that's all I can think of.

Knight/Paladin- PrC, a warrior/fighter fighting under a God or a King.

Samurai- PrC, a warrior/fighter who has taken up bushido.

Caller/Summoner- A Core Class that specializes in Summoning. With all of the magic users as core classes, this should be there too.

Dancer- A Core Class just like that spoony bard class. Like a Bard uses music the Dancer uses dances to cast spells...just like a moogle I know (a tear).


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Tyler The Tenken...signing on
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[Quip]

I'm working on a pretty good FF system at the moment, if you like I can send you some summaries of my progress. (I asked the boards for feedback a while back in this thread, but I guess you missed it. ) Its a bit of different spin on things, and it may not be exactly what you're thinking of but I'm sure you'd find it interesting.

Basically it also uses the D&D class system (though slightly modified), with a bit of d20 Modern design and a rather unique ability system. As far as feel and references to FF games, its most similar to FF9, with a large portion of FFT and as much of any other FF game as I can fit in it. I'm including most of the classes you have there, except the calculator and mimic (for now anyways).

It would probably be easier to foward you some emails I had sent for feedback, its a bit much to try to relate on the boards.

So... you interested?

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Not entirely sure i agree on Geomancer, Time mage, and Oricle being core classes. It seems to me like those would actually make more sense as Prc's as they represent a more focused line of expertise.

I would also say that red mage, and Knight/Paladin should definatly be core. To me Red mage has always been one of the basic types of magic users in the FF universe. Of course, the other side of the coin is it'd be super easy to rework the Mystic thuerge into a red mage Prc. I think that'd be a bit of a cop out though. The Knight/paladin just seems right as a core class because i don't see any reason that a character couldn't start out as a holy warrior type, or a trained soilder.

I one other thought on core/Prc's have you given any thought to doing Prc's for the advanced forms in FF1. Like White/Blkack/Red Wizard, Grand master, ect.

 

[squirrel]

I would picture Cyan's class as being a high level PrC. I'd call it Retainer, gain special sword attacks as you gain levels in the PrC, and the details can be set from there.

Maybe you could use the Legendary PrC idea for some of the high level PrC's. A few examples can be found here

 

[Pengin]

I remember reading your FFT d20 stuff and really liking it. There were a lot of good ideas, I thought, and would love to help you refine those into another set of rules.

When I made my own attempt at doing FFT d20 rules I ended up really butchering the d20 system used in D&D to accomadate the Tactics feel. I had Reaction Abilities (like Hamedo, and Auto-Potion) along with eight-level classes (guaranteeing that you multi-classed.)

The reason I bring this up is because we should probably try and figure out now if we want to make this a D&D compatible take on the Final Fantasy world or a Final Fantasy combatible take on the D&D system. Basically I think it needs to be established what is more important: quick and easy integration into the existing rules or more significant system modifications to help capture the feel of Final Fantasy.

Either way I'm totally excited that this project isn't dead and would like to help in anyway possible.

-Karl

 

[drothgery]

The reason I bring this up is because we should probably try and figure out now if we want to make this a D&D compatible take on the Final Fantasy world or a Final Fantasy combatible take on the D&D system. Basically I think it needs to be established what is more important: quick and easy integration into the existing rules or more significant system modifications to help capture the feel of Final Fantasy.

My inclination would be to to try and build a set of classes and PrCs that would be kind of a d20 WoT or Arcana Unearthed. New core classes, new magic system, new special abilities, but at the end of the day, it works like a d20 game.

Also, try and keep things simple. Not every FF4/6/9/Tactics class needs an exact RPG equivalent, and options within a class will help. Try to have no more than ten core classes and ten PrCs to start with. Maybe Black Mage, Blue Mage, Red Mage, White Mage, Caller/Summoner, Rogue*, Monk*, Fighter*, and Knight for core classes.

* Tweaked a bit from the D&D versions.

 

[Creamsteak]

Cyan is obviously not a normal Samurai, just like how Sabin isn't a normal Monk. Perhaps it'd be easier to just build more prestige classes instead of making character specific abilities.

I would picture Cyan's class as being a high level PrC. I'd call it Retainer, gain special sword attacks as you gain levels in the PrC, and the details can be set from there.

That makes sense, but you also have to understand that no Prestige class should be an automatic choice for a class. You can't make a prestige class completely more appealing than it's normal counterpart, otherwise everyone would choose it naturally.

RedMage- A Core Class that gets both Black and White magic spells but only up to a certain level in each.

I'll agree that it makes sense as a core class. Though in DnD the closest thing to the red mage is still a Bard...

Knight/Paladin- PrC, a warrior/fighter fighting under a God or a King.

Have you played Final Fantasy IV? I don't think allegiance is very important to the Paladin, not anywhere near as much as his own code...

Quip - Not really. I need to do the work on my own. After my previous incarnation was all well and good, I'm looking to do the same thing over again, but mechanically sound and more playable.

Not entirely sure i agree on Geomancer, Time mage, and Oricle being core classes. It seems to me like those would actually make more sense as Prc's as they represent a more focused line of expertise.

I can agree with you, but at the same time I'd prefer them as core classes (maybe not time mage...) to allow players to develop skills throughout that class... 20 levels gives a lot more room to balance power gained from a class.

Pengin - I agree completely... on all counts...

drothgery - Actually, I was thinking 15/15 for total number of classes. Classes are important, and there are a lot of them I'd like to put together. Otherwise, we have the same general idea...

 

[Creamsteak]

Compiled Core Class List
Knight - Basically I believe that the 'Knight' Class is the equivelent of the Fighter in FF1, the Knight in Final Fantasy Tactics, and the Knight in Final Fantasy 5. It will draw it's abilities mostly from it's ability to specialize, not much different from a core DnD fighter. Break arts will have to be taken into account as sunder more than likely, to keep things simple.

Thief - Obviously somewhere between a rogue and a combat pick pocket... maybe some abilities not too far-fetched for a ranger or similar... I'm going to try to make it automatically qualify for ninja at level x, but there will be a tough decision on which path to take.

Monk - Not very much like the DnD monk. This one would develop a lot of the mystic techniquest that many of the Final Fantasy monks developed... I'd like to allow it the most 'options' of attack in combat. Basically throw out most of the spiritual abilities from the 3.5 core monk (not aging, becoming an outsider, etc.).

Red Mage - White Magic/Black Magic, swordsplay, Light armor...

White Mage - Obviously...

Black Mage - Same...

Dragoon - More specialized than the Knight. Obviously it should be able to perform the jump attack, but that's going to be a slight bit complicated to figure out...

Paladin - Once again, more specialized than a Knight. It would be very similar to a classic Paladin or Cecil, but then again I'm considering that it wouldn't use a mount and would be significantly more offensive...

Dark Knight - Obviously this one is going to take some creativity. I don't want a class for 'evil characters', but rather, for those that are willing to use the dark side of the force as it is...

Bard - Sing, hide, blah. Maybe kick it up with a slight spell list or something...

Geomancer - Mog style + FFT style should work well together... it's going to be a bit tough, more complicated than druid obviously...

Hunter - Similar to core ranger... basically a FFT archer/FF5 Hunter thig...

Chemist - Some kind of Expert/Specialist that actually uses thier skills and such to some degree of power. I'm thinking that fire-arms need to be in the game just to justify playing this class...

Berserker - Barbarian... but with longer rage, and a great deal less control. Probably a class that would just plain be fun to play. Go into rage and you can't stop yourself...