Fighter/Paladin Multiclass Marking

[Victoly]

Hi everyone,

I'm playing a Fighter in a game of 4E that our group recently got going and I was giving consideration to multiclassing to Paladin at some point for roleplaying/character development considerations, but then started looking into the mechanics of it and had a few questions pop up.

If my interpretation is correct, I should be able to use a minor action for Divine Challenge to mark one foe with my "Paladin mark", use my standard action to attack a different foe and activate Combat Challenge, marking it with my "Fighter mark", and then move adjacent to the subject of my "Paladin mark" (if I wasn't already adjacent) to fulfil the conditions of Divine Challenge. I'd have to mark a different target with Combat Challenge each turn, but so long as I remained adjacent to the target of Divine Challenge I could maintain two "marked" targets. The first foe would suffer the effects of Divine Challenge if it failed to attack me and the second would suffer the effects of Combat Challenge.

This in itself doesn't appear problematic - there are already a number of abilities that let you mark multiple foes at once, so it's not as if there's no precedent for this. Where it gets potentially confusing is when you introduce Fighter and Paladin powers that "mark" targets. Common sense would dictate that enemies marked by Fighter powers suffer the effects of Combat Challenge and that enemies marked by Paladin powers suffer the effects of Divine Challenge.

Does that sound right to everyone? It doesn't seem overly complicated to me, I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking anything obvious and/or important. I'm aware that I can only have one mark on each enemy at a time, as placing a new mark gets rid of the old one, of course.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

[IanB]

Powers that mark targets just inflict the marked condition. They don't come along with all the fancy extras that happen when you mark someone with Divine Challenge or Combat Challenge, even if you aren't multiclassed.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Technically, a fighter has marked everyone, and they all suffer the effects of Combat Challenge, and any other powers that reference marks.

Divine Challenge does a number of things, and includes marking as part of the effect.

Combat Challenge does two things:

Provides a way to mark targets

Give benefits against targets you have marked

The second one doesn't care where the mark comes from, be it a divine challenge, the combat challenge 'method', or a power that marks targets.

 

[Victoly]

Powers that mark targets just inflict the marked condition. They don't come along with all the fancy extras that happen when you mark someone with Divine Challenge or Combat Challenge, even if you aren't multiclassed.

So you're saying that these powers which mark targets effectively do nothing? The only effects of being marked that I'm aware of are listed in the entries for Combat Challenge and Divine Challenge.

 

[IanB]

So, a creature marked as part of a Divine Challenge would be marked for the purposes of Combat Challenge.

Hm, that creates a double jepoardy situation for someone marked by a paladin who has a fighter adjacent. Non-stacking marks was done to avoid those situations; I think it is likely that the intent would be for only the fighter's own marks to trigger the extras from Combat Challenge.

 

[IanB]

So you're saying that these powers which mark targets effectively do nothing? The only effects of being marked that I'm aware of are listed in the entries for Combat Challenge and Divine Challenge.

Marked is a condition; you can check the condition list on p.277 in the Combat chapter for the effects. Basically it is just the -2 attack part.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Hm, that creates a double jepoardy situation for someone marked by a paladin who has a fighter adjacent. Non-stacking marks was done to avoid those situations; I think it is likely that the intent would be for only the fighter's own marks to trigger the extras from Combat Challenge.

In that case, they are not marked by the Fighter.

A multiclass fighter who uses divine challenge is the person marking the target. Since it's "his" mark, he gets to use his combat challenge ability as well.

Ultimately, any mark created by the fighter counts for combat challenge, be it from a multiclass enabled divine challenge and any number of attack powers that "leave a mark" as part of the effect.

The only important part of marks is who is the one that placed it.

[In the case of divine challenge, if a paladin has a power that marks, the 'additional' marks are not under the effect of divine challenge].

Divine Challenge causes a mark. Any marks [made by the fighter in question] allow that fighter to make immediate reaction attacks because of combat challenge.

 

[Lurker37]

'Marked' is a condition in 4E.

It's the '-2 to hit any target but the creature who marked you'.

Plus there are powers that have extra effect on marked targets, or which can only be used on marked targets.

 

[Victoly]

Marked is a condition; you can check the condition list on p.277 in the Combat chapter for the effects. Basically it is just the -2 attack part.

Okay, thanks - I was expecting to see something in the classes chapter on that.

However, since Combat Challenge is a class feature and not a specific power, it would seem to me that the benefits of Combat Challenge would apply to any creature marked by the Fighter/Paladin, regardless of the "marking" ability, whereas the 3/6/9+charisma damage would only be a feature of the one target marked specifically with the Divine Challenge power (which, in a nutshell, is WalterKovacs' interpretation). This wasn't my initial interpretation, but it seems to make the most sense to me now...

 

[IanB]

In that case, they are not marked by the Fighter.

A multiclass fighter who uses divine challenge is the person marking the target. Since it's "his" mark, he gets to use his combat challenge ability as well.

The text of Combat Challenge doesn't specify that they have to be the fighter's marks though; I think this may be a loophole. I agree that currently a multi-classed F/P would work as you describe.