Fighter Subclass: The Bravura! (INT-based, tactical, non-magical)

[mellored]

Additionally, if I'm simply trading attacks 1:1, such as the above "when an ally attacks, he gets a second attack" then there's no point to the power.

That's not all your getting.

Effectively you are getting...
+5 initiative (you deal damage earlier).
1 free granted attack per turn (as your basic reaction).
1:1 trade on each additional attack granted. (with other possible stuff, like giving advantage on saves).

And, what's the point about having a hand free?

Because you're getting a lot more. So it costs more.

We're still working out how much more. Not all these ideas will make it.

I mean, as written, I'm best off when I'm unarmed? Seriously? Hrm, let's have a fighter chassis but make sure that he's not actually using weapons.

Fair.
2-hands free is probably a bit overboard. And medium armor seems a bit finicky.

1-hand free seems like a good compromise, and simplifies things a bit.

-2 AC, to get +2d6+3 damage from your barbarian every turn.

 

[FrogReaver]

Honestly it's not to me. I'm trying to design something to please Warlord fans.* Maybe that's a bad reason.

On the other hand, it might seem strange for somebody with an excessively low Int to be spontaneously improvising amazing plans.

*Although I also think something like this would be super fun to play.

Luck, Wisdom, Charisma. All of these could be other sources for plans succeeding.

I'm a fan of 4e Warlords. I think you are on the cusp of making something that can be considered the Spiritual Successor to the 4e Warlord, but I don't really find 4e warlord mechanics compelling for 5e. I find your reaction based mechanics very compelling. I understand the concept and how intelligence is how you originally envisioned it. But honestly it could just be planning and quick on your feat thinking etc.

Or we could limit it to INT. But I think we are all struggling to find the right int based mechanic to add.

 

[FrogReaver]

What if we tied the number of "moves" learned to intelligence. Say, 1+Int Mod moves minimum 2?

 

[Guest 6801328]

What if we tied the number of "moves" learned to intelligence. Say, 1+Int Mod moves minimum 2?

Yes, we discussed that a few pages back. My first reaction was to like it, but after thinking about it more if we want to expand the repertoire we either have to restrict it to only Int, which almost forces the Bravura to keep spending ASIs on Int (otherwise never learn anything new) or have Int + x where x changes (and Int might be changing, too.)

I mean, it works, but it just doesn't feel clean.

How about just one or possibly two reactions that key off of Int. Or even one reaction each that keys off of Int, Wis, Cha? You can ignore all three stats, but there's an incentive to invest in one? (Heck...one off of each stat, plus a few neutral ones?)

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes, we discussed that a few pages back. My first reaction was to like it, but after thinking about it more if we want to expand the repertoire we either have to restrict it to only Int, which almost forces the Bravura to keep spending ASIs on Int (otherwise never learn anything new) or have Int + x where x changes (and Int might be changing, too.)

I mean, it works, but it just doesn't feel clean.

How about just one or possibly two reactions that key off of Int. Or even one reaction each that keys off of Int, Wis, Cha? You can ignore all three stats, but there's an incentive to invest in one? (Heck...one off of each stat, plus a few neutral ones?)

Could work. Need an example ability or 2.

 

[mellored]

Remind me again what is gained by making them choose how many hands-free? Is it simply to give them a sliding scale between their own damage and the effectiveness of their reactions?

Yes.

It's starting to feel like a lot of complexity that isn't essential to the design.

Agreed.
Sometimes you need to go too far before you know where the limits are.

Though, I'm really starting to think 1 free hand is the answer.

*It's simple.
*It takes away some power to give to the reactions.
*It's only a minor punish for failing to react. (low player skill gap).
*It's distinct. There is no other 1-handed sub-class.

And let's talk about Int. I'm wary of making the class too MAD

If we go with the 1-hand free thing, then yea, ease up on the MAD.
I'd still keep a little for flavor, but we don't need to push 18 Int.

I do like the idea that the plan-making ability at level 10 somehow uses Int. E.g., "Everybody in the party gets to add your Int bonus to one ability check that directly contributes to the stated goal".

How about 4+Int people get advantage (including yourself)? Drop Int everywhere else.

So your typical party of 5 requires 12 Int. A little smarter than your average fighter.
But an 8 Int fighter can still work.

 

[mellored]

How about just one or possibly two reactions that key off of Int. Or even one reaction each that keys off of Int, Wis, Cha? You can ignore all three stats, but there's an incentive to invest in one? (Heck...one off of each stat, plus a few neutral ones?)

That could potentially lead you to putting all your stats into 1 reaction, and being near useless if you don't get to do it. (i.e. requiring high player skill).
Not saying it's impossible. But it's a pitfall to watch out for. One I've fallen in myself at least twice.


Edit:
Oh, how about 13 Int/Wis/Cha as a prerequisite for some contingencies?

Inspiring Word: (Prerequisite 13 Cha)
As a reaction when an ally within 30' takes damage, you can shout words of encouragement. They gain temporary hit points...

Or perhaps....

Brace for Impact:
As a reaction when an ally with 5' takes damage, you can reduce that damage by half.
If you have at least 13 Cha, you can do this at 30'.


Hmm..... not sure I like that.

 

[Guest 6801328]

That could potentially lead you to putting all your stats into 1 reaction, and being near useless if you don't get to do it. (i.e. requiring high player skill).
Not saying it's impossible. But it's a pitfall to watch out for. One I've fallen in myself at least twice.


Edit:
Oh, how about 13 Int/Wis/Cha as a prerequisite for some contingencies?

Inspiring Word: (Prerequisite 13 Cha)
As a reaction when an ally within 30' takes damage, you can shout words of encouragement. They gain temporary hit points...

Or perhaps....

Brace for Impact:
As a reaction when an ally with 5' takes damage, you can reduce that damage by half.
If you have at least 13 Cha, you can do this at 30'.


Hmm..... not sure I like that.

Prerequisites seem like a straightforward solution. Varying effects with a threshold seems overly complex.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

On the other hand, it might seem strange for somebody with an excessively low Int to be spontaneously improvising amazing plans.

As written its not improvising plans at all. Its abilities are based around reacting to events happening around them rather than directing them.

The class is an Opportunist, not a planner. As such, Int is fairly unnecessary.
Wis might fit thematically. (You would have thought that Dex would be important, but the ability to act before your initiative comes up means that paradoxically, fast reactions are actually less necessary for the class than other fighters.

I'd suggest that free hand bonuses be looked at again: it might make thematic sense that you need a free hand to pull someone (as opposed to shoving them), but the idea of messing with an armed opponent being easier when unarmed is counterintuitive to say the least.

 

[Guest 6801328]

As written its not improvising plans at all. Its abilities are based around reacting to events happening around them rather than directing them.

The class is an Opportunist, not a planner.

Interesting observation. By "improvising plans" I was referring to the 10th level ability (in whatever form it ends up in). But you're right: the core of the class is reaction/opportunism, not planning. I've been thinking of them as the same thing, which is noticing important details and then "seeing ahead" a few moves. The combat reactions just happen on a much shorter time scale.

But maybe they're not so similar?