Fighting from horseback

[The_Universe]

Since fighting from horseback seems to be a common occurence in the game (and will likely continue to be so even after the current adventure ends and the next proceeds) I thought it might be worthwhile to explore some of the finer points of fighting from horseback so that we all know what the heck we're doing when the proverbial shiznit hits the fan.

As you know, I'm using the "chase rules" from Grim Tales for the basics of maneuvering during mounted combat. Since most of what happens from horseback happens at a relatively high speed, we'd be crossing the battlemat every round or two if we tried to keep it at a "real" scale. I believe you all have a copy of those rules (if you don't, let me know - I have extras) and I *think* I've posted an electronic version somewhere. Let me know if I have or haven't and I can try to do that sometime in the next few weeks.

Anyway, what I want to make sure that we do is reach an understanding of how the "normal" mounted combat rules work (the related feats, the ride skill) as related to the grim tales chase rules. If there are conflicting items, we'll figure out how to work around or through that conflict, and in the end of this thread we should have a solid understanding of how mounted combat works (for us, at least). By doing so, we'll make sure that you're able to plan to do things as advantageously as possible, and reduce the number of things that I have to rule on "on the fly."

So - what do we know?

 

[The_Universe]

Here's the ride rules from the modern SRD - Sidewinder has some more options that I can't post from work. This should be a good starting point for the discussion, though.

Ride
(Dex)
Animals ill suited as mounts provide a -2 penalty on their rider's Ride check.

Check: Typical riding actions don't require checks. A character can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount without a problem. Mounting or dismounting an animal is a move action. Some tasks, such as those undertaken in combat or other extreme circumstances, require checks. In addition, attempting trick riding or asking the animal to perform an unusual technique also requires a check.

Guide with Knees (DC 5): The character can react instantly to guide his or her mount with his or her knees so that the character can use both hands in combat or to perform some other action. Make the check at the start of the character's round. If the character fails, he or she can only use one hand this round because the character needs to use the other to control his or her mount.

Stay in Saddle (DC 5): The character can react instantly to try to avoid falling when his or her mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when the character takes damage.

Fight while Mounted (DC 20): While in combat, the character can attempt to control a mount that is not trained in combat riding (see the Handle Animal skill). If the character succeeds, he or she uses only a move action, and the character can use his or her attack action to do something else. If the character fails, he or she can do nothing else that round. If the character fails by more than 5, he or she loses control of the animal. For animals trained in combat riding, the character does not need to make this check. Instead, the character can use his or her move action to have the animal perform a trick (commonly, to attack). The character can use his or her attack action normally.

Cover (DC 15): The character can react instantly to drop down and hang alongside his or her mount, using it as one-half cover. The character can't attack while using his or her mount as cover. If the character fails, he or she doesn't get the cover benefit.

Soft Fall (DC 15): The character reacts instantly when he or she falls off a mount, such as when it is killed or when it falls, to try to avoid taking damage. If the character fails, he or she takes 1d6 points of falling damage.

Leap (DC 15): The character can get his or her mount to leap obstacles as part of its movement. Use the character's Ride modifier or the mount's Jump modifier (whichever is lower) when the mount makes its Jump check (see the Jump skill). The character makes a Ride check (DC 15) to stay on the mount when it leaps.

Fast Mount or Dismount (DC 20; armor penalty applies): The character can mount or dismount as a free action. If the character fails the check, mounting or dismounting is a move action. (A character can't attempt a fast mount or dismount unless he or she can perform the mount or dismount as a move action this round, should the check fail.)

Special: If the character is riding bareback, he or she takes a -5 penalty on Ride checks. A character can take 10 when making a Ride check, but can't take 20.

A character with the Animal Affinity feat gets a +2 bonus on all Ride checks.

Time: Ride is a move action, except when otherwise noted for the special tasks listed above.

 

[AIM-54]

--Firing from horseback when moving at more than a walk (60ft/round is the base, IIRC) incurs a penalty, -4 for a double move, -8 for running and there's a -12 in Sidewinder for something more jarring, but I don't recall the specifics. The Blaze of Saddle feat reduces these penalties in half and Cavalry Training eliminates them altogether.

EDIT: Second bit taken care of with SRD post.

 

[The_Universe]

Does anyone have a paper or electronic copy of the chase rules? They're also necessary for our discussion.

JC in particular - since we're moving, Sidewinder is all boxed up for me. Do you think you could post the extended "Ride" options found in that book so we can continue this discussion?

 

[AIM-54]

Yeah, I'll do that tonight. Give me something to look forward to discussing at work tomorrow.

 

[The_Universe]

Works for me!

 

[AIM-54]

From Sidewinder, under Ride, pg. 92:

Sleep in Saddle (DC 10) : With a successful skill check, the character can sleep and remain seated in the saddle. Unless being led by a compadre or following another animal, the mount will likely simply stop moving, or move about randomly. If the Ride check fails, the cowpoke falls from the mount. The sleeping character must make a skill check hourly.

Bulldogging (DC 15) : With a successful Ride check (DC 15), a cowboy is able to leap from his mount as a free action in order to make an unarmed attack (including a bull-rush, grapple, tackle, or trip) against an opponent. If the Ride check fails, besides looking right foolish, the cowboy falls to the ground, takes the appropriate falling damage, and loses his attack action.

Spur Mount (DC 15) : The cowboy can spur his mount to greater speed. On a successful Ride skill check (DC 15), the mount's speed increases by 10 feet for one round. Whether the check succeeds or fails, spurring a mount inflicts one point of damage to the mount's grit.

Comanche Riding (DC 20) : Comanche riding is an advanced version of the cover task (see above). If a character makes the DC check, he or she gains the one half cover bonus and can still perform an attack action. If the character chooses to make an attack with his attack action, the character may only use a one-handed weapon that is Medium-sized or smaller. If the Ride check fails, the character must make a DC 20 Reflex save or fall from the mount. In either event, on a failed skill check the attack action is wasted.

Synergy: A character with 5 or more ranks in Ride gains a +2 synergy bonus when using the Balance skill to stand on the back of a horse.
A character with 5 or more ranks in Handle Animal receives a +2 synergy bonus when riding a mount trained by the character.


Relevant Feats
Animal Affinity : The character receives a +2 bonus on all Handle Animal and Ride skill checks. Handle Animal skill cannot be used untrained.

Blazing Saddle : The character has become an expert at firing ranged weapons from horseback.
Prerequisites: Ride 6 ranks, Defensive Riding
Benefit: When making a ranged attack from horseback (or on any other sort of mount), the penalty for firing from an unstable platform is reduced by half. In addition, the rider can take this ranged attack action at any point along the mount's movement.
Normal: While riding a horse (or any other animal), a character suffers a penalty to all ranged attack rolls based on how vigorously the rider is jostled. The penalty is -4 for a horse that is making a double move and -8 for a horse that is running. While additional riders can ready an action to make an attack at any point along the mount's movement, the controlling rider can only make an attack action before or after the mount's movement.

Cavalry Training : The character has specialized training or experience in handling a mount during combat situations.
Prerequisites: Ride 10 ranks, Blazing Saddle, Defensive Riding
Benefit: When making a ranged attack from horseback (or any other four-legged critter), the rider no longer suffers any penalties for firing from an unstable platform.

Defensive Riding : The character rides as though born in the saddle.
Prerequisite: Ride 4 ranks
Benefit: While riding, both the character and mount gain a +1 Dodge bonus to Defense.
Special: Any condition that causes the character to lose his Dexterity bonus to Defense also makes the character lose any dodge bonuses. In addition, the mount will also lose the +1 dodge bonus granted by this feat. Remember, unlike most other bonus types, dodge bonuses stack.

Ride-By Attack : The character is trained in the art of fast cavalry melee skirmishing.
Prerequisites: Ride 6 ranks, Defensive Riding
Benefit: When the character is mounted and uses the charge action, the character may move and make a melee attack at any point along the mount's movement. The mount's movement must be in a continuous straight line and the character's total movement for the round cannot exceed double the mount's speed. The melee attack receives the same bonuses as one delivered by a standard charge. Neither the character nor his mount provoke an attack of opportunity from the defending opponent.
Special: Attacks of opportunity may still be provoked from opponents other than the defender.

Spirited Charge : Using the extra momentum provided by a mount, the character is skilled at delivering a devastating melee attack during a charge.
Prerequisites: Ride 6 ranks, Defensive Riding, Ride-By Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, the character deals double damage with a melee weapon.

Trample : The character knows how to use a mount to knock down an opponent, giving the mount an opportunity to trample the opponent.
Prerequisites: Ride 6 ranks, Defensive Riding, Ride-By Attack
Benefit: When the character attempts to overrun an opponent while mounted, the target may not choose to avoid the character. If the character knocks down the target, the character's mount may make one hoof attack against the target, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets.

 

[AIM-54]

Mounted Combat stuff

From Sidewinder, Mounted Combat, pg. 224:

Controlling A Mount : The steps necessary to control a mount in combat differ depending on whether the mount is trained for combat (see Handle Animal skill).
Trained Mounts : Directing a trained mount to move or perform any other action in combat requires a move action by the rider. If the mount doesn't act or move (other than a 5-foot step) the rider doesn't need to spend an action. The move action may occur before or after the rider's remaining move or attack action. A Ride skill check isn't required to control a trained mount.
Untrained Mounts : For mounts that are easily frightened and haven't been trained to tolerate the noise and chaos of battle, a Ride check is required at the beginning of any round. The DC of this skill check is 20. (See Ride skill for modifiers and complications to this skill check). If the skill check succeeds, the rider spends only a move action controlling the mount. If the check fails, the rider must spend the entire round controlling the panicked mount and no other actions are possible until the next round.

Mounts in Combat : The mount moves and acts on the rider's initiative count as directed by the rider. As with any creature, the mount is able to take a move and an attack action, two move actions, or a full-round action. All of the mount's actions are resolved during the controlling action perfomred by the rider.

Combat While Mounted : With a DC 5 Ride check, a rider can guide the mount with his or her knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend. This is a free action.
Melee Attacks : If the mount charges, both the rider and mount suffer a -2 penalty to their Defense. If either the rider or the mount makes a melee attack at the end of the charge, a +2 bonus to the attack roll is gained. In all respects, the rider is considered as charging. If the mount runs, withdraws, or makes a double-move, the rider isn't allowed to perform a melee attack either before or after the mount moves. The mount spends the entire round moving and there is insufficient time for the rider to make a melee attack.
Ranged Attacks : When firing a longarm from the back of a mount, a character suffers a -2 penalty to all attack rolls unless the longarm is a carbine. Attacking with a ranged weapon while mounted results in penalties for attacking from a moving platform (see Attack Roll Modifiers, pg. 215). If the mount makes only a single move action, the character doesn't suffer a penalty because the motion is gentle enough to attack normally. If the mount moves twice, withdraws, or charges, all ranged attacks are made at a -4 penalty. If the mount runs, the penalty is -8. These penalties can be reduced by possessing either the Blazing Saddles feat or the Cavalry Training feat.
Withdraw : As usual, if the mount withdraws it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity for moving from its initial square. The rider, however, will provoke attacks of opportunity for moving unless the only actions the rider takes during the round are move actions.
Riding Defensively : A rider can direct his mount to move in such a way as to make both the rider and mount difficult to hit in combat. Each gains a +2 dodge bonus to Defense at the expense of the mount and rider suffering a -4 to all attack rolls. Additional passengers receive the same bonus and penalty as the rider.
Total Defense : A rider can completely abandon all possibility of attack to gain a large bonus to Defense. By surfeiting all attacks by rider and mount during a round, both gain a +4 dodge bonus to Defense. Addional passengers receive a -8 penalty on attack rolls. These modifiers last until the rider's next round of actions. Total defense requires an attack action from both the rider and the mount.
Full Attack Action : A rider cannot normally make a full attack, because controlling the mount requires a move action; however, passengers can take full-attack actions, because they don't have to use a move action to direct the mount. There is one exception to this rule prohibiting riders from taking full attack actions. Characters with at least two levels in the Pony Soldier advanced class only need to spend a free action to control a trained mount. This free action can be taken before or after all other actions in the round. Even though a Pony Soldier is able to control his or her mount and make a full attack in the same round, he or she cannot make melee attacks if the mount runs, withdraws, or performs a double move. This restriction doesn't apply to ranged attacks. Furthermore, as usual, the Pony Soldier is unable to make more than one melee attack after a charge.

If a Mount Falls in Battle : If a rider's mount falls, the rider must succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and suffer no damage. If the check fails, and the mount's last movement consisted of a single move or remaining stationary, the rider takes 1d6 points of damage. If the mount's last move was two move actions, the rider takes 2d6 damage. If the movement was a run, the damage is 3d6.

If a Rider is Dropped : If a rider is knocked unconscious, he or she has a 50% chance to stay in the saddle. Otherwise the character falls and takes the same damage as if the mount was killed or knocked unconscious. Without anyone to guide it, the mount normally avoids combat, unless the mount has been trained in the Guard trick.

Being Struck while Mounted : Any rider that takes damage from an attack must succeed on a DC 5 Ride check or be knocked off of the mount. A rider that falls must succeed at a subsequent DC 15 Ride check or take damage (1d6, 2d6 or 3d6, as above). When an opponent attempts to trip a rider, instead of making a Dexterity or Strength check to avoid the trip, the rider may oppose the trip attempt with a Ride check. If the trip attack succeeds, the rider is unhorsed and falls prone to the ground, taking damage appropriate to the mounts movement.

Being Dragged Behind a Mount : As with the classic staple of lynch mobs throughout time, when a character is attached to a mount by a rope or chain and is dragged along the ground, he or she takes damage each round according to the mount's speed and the terrain. (Damage as per movement above). If the ground is relatively smooth and slippery (a dusty road for example) the damage is halved. If the ground is rocky, sharp, or rough, or heavy with brush, the damage is doubled. Each round a character is allowed to make a DC 15 Reflex save. If the save succeeds, only one-half damage is taken.

 

[The_Universe]

Great! Now we have something to talk about!

 

[AIM-54]

Great! Now we have something to talk about!

It's pretty straight-forward, it's just a matter of getting it all straight and remembering to apply it appropriately in combat.

One question, though. Using the GT Chase rules, what is the standard move per round? Is it generally considered to be a double move to maintain the pace? Or is it simply one move action (60 feet)? And how does that interact with some of the movement limitations on mounted combat actions?

Hopefully that makes sense.