Figments of my Imagination

[Nail]

When our 8th level Wizard nailed the Spellcraft roll, however, IMG I would've told him something along the lines of "It appears like it could be a new spell, but you realize it's a little too uniform, too...it's just not right. It nags of something illusion-based. Minor Image could certainly be used to create something like this."

The problem I see with this is by-passing the Will save/"must interact" mechanic. I'm not comfortable with that, as it needlessly neuters an already weak magic school. That's no fun. :\

For the record, I independently thought of the wall of fog illusion, months before this thread. That's neither surprising or special: there are precious few uses for figments in combat, since once you interact with them, you get a Will save.....and within a round or two, everyone can ignore it/see thru it.

 

[DrSpunj]

The problem I see with this is by-passing the Will save/"must interact" mechanic. I'm not comfortable with that, as it needlessly neuters an already weak magic school. That's no fun. :\

I don't think it "needlessly neuters" Minor Image at all. It's 2nd level for crying out loud. That puts the Spellcraft DC at 22 if you're just seeing the effects; that's not easily overcome!

First, Spellcraft is Trained Only, so most PCs aren't even going to get the chance to figure it out before they interact with it and get the Will save they're entitled to for doing so.

Second, as a 2nd level spell you could cast it as early as 3rd character level, and a 3rd level typical opposed caster will have usually no better than a +3 IntMod, 6 ranks, and a +2 synergy for 5 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana) for a total of +11 (and only then if maxed, which implies that this caster isn't easily fooled by such illusion magic and knows what to look for in such cases; Reward the Player for his chosen abilities! ).That's pretty close to a 50/50 chance which I don't consider easily overcome.

Now, if you want to convince such a caster that you really have cast a new spell then you need to use a much better illusion spell, one of higher level. When you do that the Spellcraft DC goes up accordingly making it that much tougher for novice spellcasters (or those with only a few ranks in Spellcraft if non-casters) to figure out that it's an illusion spell. However, a caster of similar ability is more familiar with magic in general and therefore still has a much better chance of recognizing it for what it is, even without interacting with it: an illusion.

If you run into an illusion specialist, they're going to likely going to be have Spell Focus (and GSF if you actually use that! ) making it that much tougher to make the Will save, but IMG I'd also apply that to the Spellcraft DC since I think that makes sense.

Just my 2 cents, of course; YMMV.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

I don't think it "needlessly neuters" Minor Image at all. It's 2nd level for crying out loud. That puts the Spellcraft DC at 22 if you're just seeing the effects; that's not easily overcome!

That's not quite the point.

The point is: you're allowing two rolls vs the same spell. That's bound to make the spell less viable.

Moreover, the very point of illusions is to fool people! People have a chance to "disbelieve" the illusion: that's modeled by allowing them a saving throw if they interact with the illusion. By allowing spellcraft a chance to detect the illusion, you're essentially giving all spell casters 2 rolls to disbelieve. That doesn't sit right with me.

But YMMV. Anyone else have an opinion and/or ruling?

 

[DrSpunj]

The point is: you're allowing two rolls for all casters vs the same spell. That's bound to make the spell less viable.

Sure, but it's not unreasonable, IMO, given that only those who have some expertise in the area (ie. have taken ranks of Spellcraft) get the second chance.

Moreover, the very point of illusions is to fool people!

Right! And amazingly enough, it's much harder to fool people who know (or are at least familiar with) your tricks!

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

Sure, but it's not unreasonable, IMO, given that only those who have some expertise in the area (ie. have taken ranks of Spellcraft) get the second chance.

And that's often all spell casters. In the typical party, that's about half of the PCs.

Remember, we haven't even mentioned the reactive check to determine what spell it is as it's cast. That's DC = 15 + spell level (rather than DC = 20 + spell level for recognizing the effects). No matter how much I might not like it, as a DM I'd have to give the wizard that check. Given our favorite Wiz 8, with a spellcraft score of +17 (??unsure), that means he automatically identifies spells cast of less than 4th level, and is reasonably assured of getting all the way up to level 9 illusions.

What I'm saying is: Alrighty, but that doesn't work for the illusion once it's in place. At that stage, it's just a Will save.

So, peanut gallery: is that reasonable/permitted under the rules?

]Right! And amazingly enough, it's much harder to fool people who know (or are at least familiar with) your tricks!

Which is represented by their higher Will save.

 

[rrealm]

As an alternative to a spellcaster getting two chances to detect an illusion, what if spellcraft provided a synergy or circumstance bonus to the will save? +2 alone seems week since it is not uncommon for a spellcaster to have a +15 to spellcraft or even knowledge of arcane. Trying to figure out the specifics would be challenging.

 

[rrealm]

As a DM, I allow ghost sound and minor image to potentially distract people. This usually translates to a -2 to spot or listen checks. YMMV

 

[Jeremy]

Remember, we haven't even mentioned the reactive check to determine what spell it is as it's cast. That's DC = 15 + spell level (rather than DC = 20 + spell level for recognizing the effects). No matter how much I might not like it, as a DM I'd have to give the wizard that check. Given our favorite Wiz 8, with a spellcraft score of +17 (??unsure), that means he automatically identifies spells cast of less than 4th level, and is reasonably assured of getting all the way up to level 9 illusions.

What I'm saying is: Alrighty, but that doesn't work for the illusion once it's in place. At that stage, it's just a Will save.

So, peanut gallery: is that reasonable/permitted under the rules?

Yeah, if the init die has been rolled and spells are being cast, you watch a wizard cast Major Image, you spellcraft it reactively, and a big wall of stone suddenly shows up, I'd probably immediately allow the will save to disbelieve, give it a +4 bonus on top of that, and let the spellcaster's naturally higher Will save do the rest.

But if the party is just walking along and happens to encounter an illusory fog or wall, why would spellcraft check to identify an in place spell effect be allowed? And if it was allowed, why wouldn't it return a result of wall of stone or fog cloud? The party already gets a Will save that negates it that if any ONE member makes allows a second will save for everyone at +4. Between two saves, most people are going to make that. But why make it 3 or 4 with the spellcraft to identify it before it even is interacted with? Does an illusory wall of stone look different than a real wall of stone? So different that it should allow 2 will saves per person AND a spellcraft check for each caster?

But I guess running and adjucating illusions is a whole 'nother topic. What I'm interested in are actual uses of silent image, minor image, and major image as a PC once initiative has been rolled and the battle is already joined.

 

[Malin Genie]

Area control. The illusion of spikes rising up from the ground, or a fissure opening up in the ground, or (with major image for thermal effects) a sheet of flames appearing will often keep creatures at bay. They don't even get a Will save unless they either inspect or try to move through the impediment, and they generally have no reason to think that these aren't real hazards that will really hurt them if they try.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Moreover, the very point of illusions is to fool people! People have a chance to "disbelieve" the illusion: that's modeled by allowing them a saving throw if they interact with the illusion. By allowing spellcraft a chance to detect the illusion, you're essentially giving all spell casters 2 rolls to disbelieve. That doesn't sit right with me.

I agree wholeheartedly. In my games, if the "victim" hasn't directly witnessed the spell being cast, he gets to roll spellcraft if and only if he either succeeds at his disbelief check (which in itself is rolled secretly) or specifically expresses the desire to examine said phenomenon for signs of magic origin...which should only be the case when the "victim" already has sound reason for thinking something to be an illusion already.

As far as combat goes, I've also let NPCs and players "fake out" others by making Bluff checks to fake components made irrelevant (i.e. a caster using the incantations for Major Creation while in reality casting a silent Minor Image)