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D&D 4E Find the Anime/Video games in 4e

Rechan

Adventurer
TheArcane said:
I'd say that mechanics for quests are very much influenced by videogames.
IMHO, Yes and No.

D&D has presented options before about story awards, XP for more than slaying monsters, XP for social encounters, XP for RP, etc.

I think that the Quest system's intention is "You get XP for accomplishing something beyond killing monsters." So you can have a murder mystery where the objective isn't to beat the murderer who is a level equivalent of your party in a fight to gain the XP, but the act of uncovering the clews and solving the murder gains you the XP. If your party wants to convince the King to not invade Country X, then you can just give them XP appropriate to accomplishing that task, because it's a stated goal of theirs.

However, I will concede this, because it's too close to the various video game systems for me to faithfully argue against it.
 

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AllisterH

First Post
Actually, Final Fantasy is a good example of how D&D influences videogames and itself is influenced by the experience.

The very first FF game literally had its MU follow the Vancian model to a T. You had limited slots to cast and limited number of spells to learn and you had to go to a church/inn and rest to get back expended slots. By FF3, the MU was using the now common mana pool system.

What the FF designers mention as the reason for the change? Because it was such a hassle for gamers since the gamers would have "1 battle, use their best spells, leave dungeon, go to inn and rest, return to dungeon and repeat"

Basically the 5 minute day that even to today affects the tabletop version.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
HeavenShallBurn said:
Some of the classes do what they always have but others have been narrowed significantly in scope.
Yes, and that's a good thing. The 1974 OD&D classes had too broad a schtick to accomodate the OD&D splat classes such as ranger, paladin and thief, the wizard being the worst offender. The problem was they thought they could just add classes willy-nilly and have the game still work, but they couldn't. The whole thing needs to be carefully balanced.

D&D classes - broken from 1975 to 2008.
 

Zweischneid

First Post
Rechan said:
Sure, if the DM goes out of his way to set it up and has to bend over backwards to accomodate it.

If the DM threw an ogre at your Wizards Apprentices, what would've happened? Or a mind flayer at your scouty types?

Seems largely a matter of perspective. Those campaigns just fell in naturally with a lack of others to measure them up against. Might just as well consider it DM-bending-over-backwards to accomodate a more diverse group of players (i.e. the 4-role-type).

Almost certainly it is alot easier to challenge a group of similarly powered PCs such as an all-wizard group than a more diverse one where any one PC can catch the wrong end of a paper-scissor-stone situation.

And if you feel the need for including a Mindflayer in a Harper story for example, you could always do some foreshadowing or some such in order to let the Players prepare accordingly.

Rechan said:
Story and the shortcomings of the system assuming you have the 4 Part Paradigm are unrelated.

Besides, the Cleric is pretty much a D&Dism. Outside of the Bible, you don't have many guys healing people, let alone trapsing around with a bunch of tomb raiding monster slayers.

Story and the shortcomings of the system are never unrelated. The whole point of the system is to set up an heroic story and the only possible way it could concievable even have a shortcoming, would be the shortcoming of not adequatly serving the needs of the story.
The system (with or without the 4 Part Paradigm, which wasn't there from the beginning IMO) is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Also, healing characters are common tropes in fantasy stories (Aragorn anyone?). And while the Cleric is a D&Dism, as are Beholders or Magic Missles, it certainly never meant that any of these D&Dism necessarily must appear in every single friggin game of D&D ever played.
 

DonTadow

First Post
bonethug0108 said:
As for styles of play, that is your opinion that they become invalid, and I see it as a false statement to begin with. Name a style of play that is now invalid with saga and maybe I can see what you mean. Otherwise you have no leg to stand on with this statement.
Agreed. I just don't see that any style of play can be invalidated by a system. My group has crossed several rpg systems outside of our d and d game and the playstyle among all is still the same. I don't think that a system does anything to a game, the game master sets the tone and style of the game. Again, we're talking about imagination here. I can't remember one piece of art from a book, because when I show images I usually download an npc or monster image from the various public domain art sites out there. You don't like the per encounter battle system, which seems to be the biggest difference, then whats stopping a house rule of a rest after losing so much hp accumulative or putting a limit on the encounters per day.

We also should stop generalizing mmo's into WOW. again wow came out in 2004, and though i haven't played it, i guess it has a character retooling thing. It's the only one that has it and dungeons and dragons released a supplement book in 2001 that had rules on how to redo a character in midgame. It was called retraining and allowed you to swap out feats and abilities. So we get into these games of chicken and egg when their is always a higher probability that somewhere in the d and d book it was done first.

I started a thread about pimping 4e because I am not happy with everything there, but thats cause everyone's style is unique, so I've already started doing tweaks to bring it into line to my style. I don't know too many d and d groups (outside of newbiew groups) who play the game strictly by the book. I don't think its ever happened.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
It seems to me that when people note videogame influence, they're usually noting "speed of play at the cost of verisimilitude."

Things like cheap resurrection magic. Makes the game flow nice, but how often did you wonder why you couldn't just cast Life to raise Aeris from the dead? (Of course, it's usually 'fluffed' out of the way by calling the 'hp falls to 0' condition KO or Swoon or something non-deadly)

Things like quest cards. It organizes the thoughts, but it kind of puts a control on quests arising organically from the game.

Things like 'refreshing' abilities. It helps you go without having a five-minute dungeon expedition, but it also means your use of power doesn't tire or exhaust you, except for a few moments.

Most of the versimilitude issues can be fluffed out of the way, if they even need to be. Calling 0 hp "Unconcious" and not "dead," making resurrection more like snapping out of an action-movie karate-chop coma. Quest cards that pertain directly to things arising organically from the PC's actions. Refreshing abilities as bursts of adrenaline.

But still, when most people are looking for the videogame influence, this is what they're looking at, because it's what videogames are famous for -- fun play that doesn't care much about the ramifications of it's rules beyond the play itself. PacMan didn't have a narrative, the Mushroom Kingdom was an excuse to run and jump, and Final Fantasy has often been accuse of being an excersise in "pressing a button to advance the plot to the next FMV" more than a game. D&D has to concern itself with a continuous world, so a lot of people see it as a bad influence, at least in large amounts, if 'realism' is eroded for quickness of play. In addition, there's always those people who take a sort of warped pride in how long and how thorough they are about the detail that D&D allows.

In this resepct, D&D4 is 'more videogame' than previous editions, mostly because of the stated goal to streamline everything, and the fact that these streamlining things are being explained away, rather than rising organically from the campaign. I just don't necessarily buy that streamlining the game is NECESSARILY treating it more like a videogame, but it is a common evolutionary trend in both D&D and in videogames.

IMO, a game like FFZ shows it's true colors more boldly.

Death is permenant. Characters just don't actually 'die' that often. They might fall unconcious, become 'swooned,' get 'KO'd', or even get captured (only to wake up later), but true death doesn't come from an accident of the dice. It comes from the player's choice to sacrifice themselves (and give their party some great benefits, and themselves a shiny new character or taking over an NPC role).

The Mission system is set up so that players get to choose which quests and side quests to explore. There is an obvious narrative, but the players aren't shoehorned into it, and the GM can manuever it around a lot from session to session.

MP is restored with every encounter, and HP can be healed with MP. The challenges more lie in individual encounters, especially in the great speed with which your HP can drop and the need to get healing available in a reasonable casting time that is significant enough to stop it from dropping.

Characters rarely miss. If they do, it's usually because of a special feature or peice of equipment. Hitting is the assumed norm, and characters vary in the types and sizes of damage dealt rather than in missing more often.

These are all directly videogame-inspired rules that make the game much, much more fun. They do require a different kind of suspension of disbelief than, say, 1e D&D did. It's not really game-breaking, though it probably is for some who prefer a feeling of more helpless characters. Which is why FFZ isn't necessarily for everyone. But it obviously is for those who enjoy both 4e and Final Fantasy. ;)
 

Mercule

Adventurer
Rechan said:
I really hate that. I do.

It's like, "I don't like turnup greens." "Well have you TRIED them?" "Yes." "Well you haven't tried these turnup greens." "But they're going to taste like turnup greens, and I don't like that taste." "Have you tried it recently?" "Sigh."

Pretty much. I'm sure you can see where it would be easy to get frustrated with the same-old conversation at an increasing pace. I had a long day, yesterday, and was already more than a little bitchy, which didn't help. I'm not going to go back and reread what I posted, but I will apologize for anything to far out that I said.

Summary of my position: There are elements that get tossed around for inclusion in D&D from time to time that I don't like. Many of these elements seem to be common tropes (or reminiscent of common tropes) in what I've experienced in anime and wuxia. Based on that experience, it is easier to say that I don't like anime and wuxia elements added to my D&D game. It is imprecise and over generalized, but it is significantly less work for a casual conversation than attempting to maintain a list of specific elements. In general, when I post something like "That's too anime," it should be read as "That's too... what's the right word... 'anime'... maybe."

I also have no problem with D&D being able to support anime-like play. I just don't want to feel like it's inescapable.
 

HeavenShallBurn

First Post
Doug McCrae said:
Yes, and that's a good thing. The 1974 OD&D classes had too broad a schtick to accomodate the OD&D splat classes such as ranger, paladin and thief, the wizard being the worst offender. The problem was they thought they could just add classes willy-nilly and have the game still work, but they couldn't. The whole thing needs to be carefully balanced.

D&D classes - broken from 1975 to 2008.
Given that I've liked those broken classes up till now I think I'll just stick with what I've got. Or re-break 4e until I find it suitable.
 

Imban

First Post
Anime influence: Almost certainly not actual anime influence, but geez, that Dwarven Full Plate Mail on p31 of Races & Classes reminds me a lot of Gundam mechanical designs. This probably came about because blocky, geometric designs are apparently the Dwarf thing. I don't actually expect anime-influenced art in 4e outside of Eberron, which seems to tend that way on occasion.

Videogame influence: While yeah, rewriting your character if you didn't like it was common in many actual play experiences, and unofficially (Hi Drizzt!) a part of D&D for a long time, it's one of the few things in 3e that seemed definitely imported wholesale from video games to me. It was also a patch on 3e's heavily prerequisite-based system, however, so I appreciated it. I agree with Kamikaze Midget that the "videogamey" thing being talked about here is the lack of verisimilitude: EQrpg, which attempted to heavily model EverQuest the game in d20, had bits of hilarity such as entire tribes of kobolds that started at CR 19, with a sidebar stating that, well, it's more fun in EverQuest that way. Likewise, while "free" healing powers that can only be used in an ongoing combat may be balanced and fun in gameplay, they're usually quite damaging to verisimilitude, since healing is something people want to do all the time.

(Well, either that or heavy constraint on player actions - the game rules totally making everything other than direct combat the realm of plot devices, for example - but the released info makes it unlikely that 4e is going in this direction.)

Rechan said:
All of a character's abilities in the HERO game system cost Endurance. Even punching someone costs endurance (though a very small number). Even swinging a deadly sword costs a lot of endurance.

After so long, your pool of Endurance runs out.

You receive a number of Endurance at the end of the combat round equal to a certain stat (Your Body + Constitution/5 I believe). And you can spend one of your turns to get some Endurance back.

HERO has been out for a long time, using what seems like Per Encounter abilities that are fed by a pool.

What you described isn't per-encounter at all - it's just an energy bar. Energy bars (including ones that recharge automatically over time) have been around forever, as you correctly note. Per-encounter abilities are actually relatively unique, and based around "cooldown" rather than cost. I can't think of anything outside Tome of Battle and 4e that functions primarily like this. Certainly, per-day abilities in Neverwinter Nights sometimes behave like this, what with the 20-second rest, and some few abilities in Guild Wars and suchlike have cooldowns such that they can effectively only be used once in a normal combat, but the per-day/per-encounter/at-will setup for abilities in 4e is, to the best of my knowledge, unique to it, or close enough that I can't produce an example of prior art.
 

Zweischneid

First Post
Imban said:
... but the per-day/per-encounter/at-will setup for abilities in 4e is, to the best of my knowledge, unique to it, or close enough that I can't produce an example of prior art.

Really? per-day/per-encounter/at-will seems pretty much to be the standard of RPGs (outside D&D that is) since at least the early 90s.

Just one example: If I remember correctly, my ol' Vampire and Werewolf Games all featured powers that lasted "one scene" which could be a combat encounter as well as a social interaction event lasting until the next change of scenery, as well as per-day (or often per-night, until sunrise, etc.., if you're talking V:tM) stuff. They obviously also had at-will powers aplenty.

Far as I know, this is just D&D catching up to where the rest industry has been since about 1989 or so..
 

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