Finland to pay all its citizens 800 euros a month to fight unemployment

[Cor Azer]

I guess so. By principale it bothers me.

At first blush it rankled me too, but then I realized (or perhaps, just hoped because I don't know how they do taxes), but a good income tax process handles this just as well - rich people may technically get richer, but if it's set up that they pay more income tax, it can work out, and you don't need two bureacracies to run two synergetic systems.

 

[delericho]

So how far does a Euro go?

$1.08.

It's a bold idea, but automating tax records/collection to active employment (why am I filing taxes when my employer is submitting them) means that the computer knows if you need a check, so only hand out checks to people who need them.

You hit problems with that as soon as you move beyond people in stable full-time employment and instead to people who have irregular shift work, zero-hour contracts, multiple part time jobs, or anything like that. As soon as you're dealing with those people, the bureaucracy needs to be much more complicated - and that means much more expensive.

 

[Janx]

$1.08.



You hit problems with that as soon as you move beyond people in stable full-time employment and instead to people who have irregular shift work, zero-hour contracts, multiple part time jobs, or anything like that. As soon as you're dealing with those people, the bureaucracy needs to be much more complicated - and that means much more expensive.

Correction: You hit problems with that as soon as you are working for employers for cash or ones who do not have electronically filing payroll systems in place.

A guy working for McDonalds, Walmart and Walgreens at the same time does not have a problem with those 3 corporations filing his tax witholdings with the IRS automatically. This stuff has been in place for over a decade. The computer can easily handle a one to many relationship for employee to employers for its record keeping.

Anybody working for a lesser employer has the onus to make sure their taxes are submitted per paycheck. This is what payroll companies are for, to solve that need for small businesses.

Folks remaining outside of that are unemployed or working for cash. Solve the data collection for that, and the whole system can be automated. For unemployed folks, that can be as easy as filing a "still not employed" form online or at a check-in office (the classic unemployment office).

Folks working for cash are illegal. No dole for them, as eventually they'll be audited when their bank account says > $800 floated through it. Audits catch that stuff eventually.

 

[Kramodlog]

True. But that will leave a tiny number of jobs for a few skilled professionals. Those guys will still be paid a decent amount. (Indeed, the guys who maintain McDonalds' kitchen equipment are currently paid a decent amount, because that's a skilled job. But they have, and will have, one or two maintenance guys for half a dozen stores; they'll be getting rid of the dozen or so people you actually see working the counters and the kitchen.)

Like self-scan checkouts, you'll probably have a low skill low play employee on the floor at all time to check the machines and interact with people. You'll just have less people working, like the self-scan checkouts require less people working at the checkouts.

Assuming, of course, they don't replace the maintenance guy with a maintenance droid, or (more likely) just swap out defective machines with new ones.

That is going a bit too much into sci-fi for the current tech.

 

[Kramodlog]

At first blush it rankled me too, but then I realized (or perhaps, just hoped because I don't know how they do taxes), but a good income tax process handles this just as well - rich people may technically get richer, but if it's set up that they pay more income tax, it can work out, and you don't need two bureacracies to run two synergetic systems.

If I understood correctly, the 800 euros won't be taxable.

 

[delericho]

Correction: You hit problems with that as soon as you are working for employers for cash or ones who do not have electronically filing payroll systems in place.

A guy working for McDonalds, Walmart and Walgreens at the same time does not have a problem with those 3 corporations filing his tax witholdings with the IRS automatically.

Assuming they get it right 100% of the time, and assuming there's no lag time between his stopping work and his unemployment benefits restarting. Neither of these is true, which means (as the link in the OP says) people who take on temporary work have been finding themselves financially disadvantaged as a consequence.

Folks remaining outside of that are unemployed or working for cash. Solve the data collection for that, and the whole system can be automated.

Indeed. Unfortunately, that's easy to say...

 

[delericho]

Like self-scan checkouts, you'll probably have a low skill low play employee on the floor at all time to check the machines and interact with people. You'll just have less people working

Yes, that's the point! They'll have fewer people working, which means more people not working. Those people will still need to eat, however, which means they need some supply of money, or society will break down. The universal income is an attempt to fix that.

That is going a bit too much into sci-fi for the current tech.

Yes, but we're talking about the day after tomorrow's tech. The future is closer than you think.

 

[Janx]

Assuming they get it right 100% of the time, and assuming there's no lag time between his stopping work and his unemployment benefits restarting. Neither of these is true, which means (as the link in the OP says) people who take on temporary work have been finding themselves financially disadvantaged as a consequence.



Indeed. Unfortunately, that's easy to say...

Outlaw working for cash?

Submit all payroll checks to the government so it can issue the checks (since it would be issuing $800 checks to everyone anyway, what's the difference with putting different numbers on them. It's all just bank transfers anwyay.

Have the government issue debit cards for handling money from the government (the US now does that for welfare programs).

suddenly, the loop is closed and all money goes through a system that can know who is getting paid and when.

Once everybody is paying with debit cards from the government, cash dies, thereby killing the cash economy.

 

[Kramodlog]

Yes, that's the point! They'll have fewer people working, which means more people not working. Those people will still need to eat, however, which means they need some supply of money, or society will break down. The universal income is an attempt to fix that.

I got interrupted by a co-worker. I wanted to say that subsidizing salaries is still a problem for those who will still have a job.

But you raise another issue. Just giving money to people who do not work is problematic. Work, a very broad definition of it, is important for self-estime, it gives a sense of purpose, keeps the body and mind sharp, etc. Does not having work for everyone mean you'll have a class of people in a sort of depressive state? It isn't like they will have tone of cash to live a life of leisure.

Yes, but we're talking about the day after tomorrow's tech. The future is closer than you think.

Not really. We're far from a lot of stuff and some stuff is just gonna be impossible.

 

[delericho]

Outlaw working for cash?

Not even remotely practical. When I play my bagpipes at a wedding, I'll typically get paid on the day and in cash. I don't (and won't) have any means to handle an electronic transfer, nor to ensure that the funds have actually been transferred.

Submit all payroll checks to the government so it can issue the checks (since it would be issuing $800 checks to everyone anyway, what's the difference with putting different numbers on them. It's all just bank transfers anwyay.

Great. And when the government inevitably gets it wrong and takes months to sort out the mistake, what do people eat in the meantime?