Finland to pay all its citizens 800 euros a month to fight unemployment

[Jan van Leyden]

That works today. In a decade, with the population having grown and the cost of living gone up, it's less true.

Not necessarily so. The population of Germany, e.g., is shrinking the average age rising. The costs for maintaining the pension system and healthcare might rise until the system's breaking point while it has to be paid for by less and less people.

The problem with that is that now those employees have the option to just walk away, and still have enough money to live. That means that employers will need to compensate them for the opportunity cost of using that time for more enjoyable exploits, which will apply an upward pressure on wages.

You don't think that less pressure to work results in lesser desire to get stuff and status symbols, do you? I'd rely on human greed (and neighbours' shiny new e-car) to make many people want to earn more money. Maybe earning money turns into something like a sport rather than pure necessity?

Well, idle speculation all this. If Finland really tries to change its society into something new, less based on wealth, I'll be a very curious observer.

 

[Janx]

Yes, that's the point! They'll have fewer people working, which means more people not working. Those people will still need to eat, however, which means they need some supply of money, or society will break down. The universal income is an attempt to fix that.



Yes, but we're talking about the day after tomorrow's tech. The future is closer than you think.

We are apparently inches away from McDonalds having robot arms to flip and serve burgers. And there are times I'd be happy to push buttons on a screen to order than try to translate my wife's deviant request into something they can recognize.

So yes, we are definitely going to have a time soon where it is not possible for all humans to have jobs by deliberate design.

And those humans will be cranky.

We either need to start killing them so they can't outnumber us and rebel (which will cause them to rebel as well).

Or support them in some new model that doesn't shame them for being unemployed. This $800/month idea seems to be a step toward the latter.

 

[delericho]

But you raise another issue. Just giving money to people who do not work is problematic. Work, a very broad definition of it, is important for self-estime, it gives a sense of purpose, keeps the body and mind sharp, etc. Does not having work for everyone mean you'll have a class of people in a sort of depressive state?

Yeah, this is a very serious problem. And it's one that we're doing a very poor job of addressing even now, when unemployment is relatively rare. As it becomes increasingly common, the problem is only going to get worse.

The Universal Wage can help address the "people have to eat" part of the problem, but you're right that it does nothing for the "people have to do something" side of it.

 

[delericho]

We are apparently inches away from McDonalds having robot arms to flip and serve burgers. And there are times I'd be happy to push buttons on a screen to order than try to translate my wife's deviant request into something they can recognize.

The McDonalds in Falkirk already has the latter.

Or support them in some new model that doesn't shame them for being unemployed. This $800/month idea seems to be a step toward the latter.

Yep.

 

[Janx]

Not even remotely practical. When I play my bagpipes at a wedding, I'll typically get paid on the day and in cash. I don't (and won't) have any means to handle an electronic transfer, nor to ensure that the funds have actually been transferred.

Imagine a world where stuff works differently, but based on the stuff we already have. Smart phones, debit cards, pay by smartphone all exist. It is a trivial problem to bump 2 phones together to pay somebody. In a world where Cash is Dead, this problem will be solved with a few lines of code and ATMs for folks who just have cards. Heck, which isn't your debit card a touchscreen device? Why doesn't the government own the merchant card network run by Visa and MasterCard? Stuff can be different, and work.

Great. And when the government inevitably gets it wrong and takes months to sort out the mistake, what do people eat in the meantime?

What do welfare people do now when the system screws up their debit card allocation? Stuff happens. Part of your point is FUD about GAS. These are basic systems that generally work already.

Some variation of the idea can be accomplished. Whether payroll feeds to government for disbursement or payroll simply uses EDI to update government records that payment has happened. It's all pretty trivial actually.

 

[Kramodlog]

Yeah, this is a very serious problem. And it's one that we're doing a very poor job of addressing even now, when unemployment is relatively rare. As it becomes increasingly common, the problem is only going to get worse.

The Universal Wage can help address the "people have to eat" part of the problem, but you're right that it does nothing for the "people have to do something" side of it.

So after the bread, we need some games.

 

[delericho]

Imagine a world where stuff works differently, but based on the stuff we already have. Smart phones, debit cards, pay by smartphone all exist. It is a trivial problem to bump 2 phones together to pay somebody.

Sure, if they both have compatible phones and if they both have the requisite software in place.

Why doesn't the government own the merchant card network run by Visa and MasterCard? Stuff can be different, and work.

Yes, it can. But we need to get from here to there, and that's the difficult bit.

What do welfare people do now when the system screws up their debit card allocation?

Starve.

 

[tomBitonti]

Very interesting stuff.

One of the future stops in Starship Trooper had this sort of economy, with many many persons living on government handouts, but having to live in squalid and dangerous conditions.

Don't several of the Middle East oil producing countries already have this type of distribution? I thought that in several of the countries folks received a monthly stipend of cooking oil, rice, and beans. That seems to be a very similar thing.

I've always wondered if the big upset of the great depression was in part because production exceeded the labor supply, and since then we've been dancing around this basic problem, that is, of there not needing to be everyone working to supply the basic needs of the workforce. With a lot of problems ensuing because of a reluctance to admit that and to simply provide a stipend to everyone.

Thx!
TomB

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If I understood correctly, the 800 euros won't be taxable.

But the money that makes them rich will be taxable. Even if it's just a tax on interest. (And most likely a rich person will have more than that as income...)

Yeah, this is a very serious problem. And it's one that we're doing a very poor job of addressing even now, when unemployment is relatively rare. As it becomes increasingly common, the problem is only going to get worse.

The Universal Wage can help address the "people have to eat" part of the problem, but you're right that it does nothing for the "people have to do something" side of it.

The do something may happen from something else - with less pressure on the job market, people might have less reasons to work extra hours to appear as an important employee. People could take part-time jobs, or take longer vacations, for example.
It doesn't work perfectly for all kinds of jobs. But if I could probably enjoy a 4-day work week quite well, and if 4 of my colleagues agree, there is a job for a 5th guy.

It also gives the opportunity for people to do stuff that normally just wouldn't pay for their living - becoming an artist or author, for example. A professional game master. It might even become easier to be flexible, because 2 weeks without a job isn't so terrible when you still get that government pay check guaranteed without needing to deal with bureaucracy.

 

[Kramodlog]

But the money that makes them rich will be taxable. Even if it's just a tax on interest. (And most likely a rich person will have more than that as income...)

It is time to tax assets like securities and have a Tobin tax.