Firbolgs - A PC Race From VOLO'S GUIDE TO MONSTERS

Interesting. A bit of a departure from depictions in earlier editions. Much more nature oriented...seems they're playing up the fey aspect based on the Celtic origins of the race.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's also not mediocre in comparison to any other race's traits. It's very significant.

You do you, but that extra damage matters to a lot of tables, so I'm cool with WotC avoiding that.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

At any rate, "how do I include Large weapons in a balanced way" is definitely a big design challenge!

I think you have to go for something like a level adjustment or racial class. If we look at, say, the 4 HD half-ogre, and compare it to what's reasonable for a 4th-level PC, I think they're within spitting distance of each other. We can even break it down into a pseudo-class table:

Base: +2 Str, +1 Con, darkvision
1st: 1d10 HD, Large size (carrying capacity)
2nd: 2d10 HD, Large size (10-foot space)
3rd: 3d10 HD, Large size (Large weapons)
4th: 4d10 HD, Ability Score Adjustment (+1 Str, +1 Con)

Given we're talking half-ogres, I'd probably throw -1 or -2 Intelligence into the adjustments for the flavor, but balancewise I don't think it's even necessary. I'd let a player roll a 1st-level half-ogre barbarian as a 5th-level character, no problem (assuming the story allowed it, of course).

 

[Yunru]

swingy balancy? Naw. That's just nonsense. Not because it wouldn't be swingy, but because it already is. Go ahead and white room the different classes at level 20.

Or... how about we don't use the highest level in the game for a comparison, and actually use a level more relevant to racial abilities, maybe 1-5?

Now for my bias I'm going to use Variant Humans, because they come closest to the suggested, with being able to take Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master.

At levels 1-4:

At the cost of their bonus action (and pretty much every other racial feature they could of had);
A Polearm Master can make two attacks at level 1, one for 1d12+Mod and one for 1d4+Mod. Average of 15 damage.
A Crossbow Expert can make two attacks at level 1, both for 1d6+Mod (but at range). Average of 13 damage.

Without using their bonus action;
A large melee weapon user can make one attack at level 1, for 2d12+Mod damage. Average of 16 damage.
A large ranged weapon user can make one attack at level 1, for 2d10+Mod damage. Average of 14 damage.

At level 5:

At the cost of their bonus action (and pretty much every other racial feature they could of had);
A Polearm Master can make three attacks at level 5, two for 1d12+Mod and one for 1d4+Mod. Average of 27.5 damage.
A Crossbow Expert can make three attacks at level 5, all for 1d6+Mod (but at range). Average of 22.5 damage.

Without using their bonus action;
A large melee weapon user can make two attacks at level 5, for 2d12+Mod damage. Average of 34 damage.
A large ranged weapon user can make two attacks at level 5, for 2d10+Mod damage. Average of 30 damage.

As you can see, both are straight up superior to their best counterparts, requiring less actions and dealing more damage.

 

[Yunru]

Or... how about we don't use the highest level in the game for a comparison, and actually use a level more relevant to racial abilities, maybe 1-5?

Now for my bias I'm going to use Variant Humans, because they come closest to the suggested, with being able to take Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master.

At levels 1-4:

At the cost of their bonus action (and pretty much every other racial feature they could of had);
A Polearm Master can make two attacks at level 1, one for 1d12+Mod and one for 1d4+Mod. Average of 15 damage.
A Crossbow Expert can make two attacks at level 1, both for 1d6+Mod (but at range). Average of 13 damage.

Without using their bonus action;
A large melee weapon user can make one attack at level 1, for 2d12+Mod damage. Average of 16 damage.
A large ranged weapon user can make one attack at level 1, for 2d10+Mod damage. Average of 14 damage.

At level 5:

At the cost of their bonus action (and pretty much every other racial feature they could of had);
A Polearm Master can make three attacks at level 5, two for 1d12+Mod and one for 1d4+Mod. Average of 27.5 damage.
A Crossbow Expert can make three attacks at level 5, all for 1d6+Mod (but at range). Average of 22.5 damage.

Without using their bonus action;
A large melee weapon user can make two attacks at level 5, for 2d12+Mod damage. Average of 34 damage.
A large ranged weapon user can make two attacks at level 5, for 2d10+Mod damage. Average of 30 damage.

As you can see, both are straight up superior to their best counterparts, requiring less actions and dealing more damage.

I'll stick with a Fighter who doesn't take feats (for simplicity, and to give and underestimate of Large weapons, since any race that has large weapons can pick up the feat anyway) and expand this to later levels.

Level 6-10:
Polearm Master: Two for 1d12+Mod. One for 1d4+Mod. Average 30.5 damage.
Crossbow Expert: Three for 1d6+Mod. Average 25.5 damage.
Large Melee: Two for 2d12+Mod. Average 36 damage.
Large Ranged: Two for 2d10+Mod. Average 32 damage.

Levels 11-19:
Polearm Master: Three for 1d12+Mod. One for 1d4+Mod. Average 42 damage.
Crossbow Expert: Four for 1d6+Mod. Average 34 damage.
Large Melee: Three for 2d12+Mod. Average 54 damage.
Large Ranged: Three for 2d10+Mod. Average 48 damage.

Level 20:
Polearm Master: Four for 1d12+Mod. One for 1d4+Mod. Average 53.5 damage.
Crossbow Expert: Five for 1d6+Mod. Average 42.5 damage.
Large Melee: Four for 2d12+Mod. Average 72 damage.
Large Ranged: Four for 2d10+Mod. Average 56 damage.

 

[Yunru]

Well, we could do cranky damage if we wanted, but again, i implied a flaw was necessary to pay for giant weapons.

And I proved it. The maths is simple, and much more effective than just speaking without proof.

What did I prove? Nothing.

QFT

The difference, however, is you relied upon conditionals to make your assessments, whereas I eliminated as many conditionals as possible.
Thus yours can't have conclusions drawn from it, other than "there's too many variables to form a simple conclusion", whereas mine can.

 

[Dargrimm]

I actually like it quite a bit. Always loved fey themes and the Moonshaes is one of my favorite areas of Faerun... they're perfect for that!

 

[TheCosmicKid]

High level is like Old Age. You either die or there's a 100% chance you get there.

Old age can't be thwarted by your gaming group breaking up or your DM getting burned out or your job taking you to a different city or happenstance ending your game in any one of countless other ways.

 

[Yunru]

not really. no one in my games uses crossbows or polearms, so your example seems more abstract and conditional than even mine.

That's not even an argument. "No-one uses it." doesn't mean it doesn't exist, doesn't mean it isn't the closest comparison that can be drawn, and doesn't mean it isn't still weaker than large weapons.

And your argument is moot without considering my acceptance of a flaw to pay for the merit.

Excuse me? My entire point was that a flaw would be needed. Learn to read.

As to low level. Yes. at low level every numerical advantage seems inflated.

Then high level happens. By the time the wizard gets fireball, no one is going to care about some piddly extra dice.

Except everyone playing a weapon user, then it matters. And then it dominates all the options. Referring to completely irrelevant options doesn't change anything.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So... is the current argument that at High levels the extra damage isn't comparable to high level spells so its okay?

Here's my rather simple and perhaps too simple comparison.

Dwarf and Half-orc are supposedly balanced options for melee. They get relatively minor combat bonuses (mostly the orcs crit and drop to 1 instead of 0) while dwarf gets... poison resistance I guess?

Chose Fighter or barbarian, it doesn't matter. Take goliath and Firbolg and replace powerful build and maybe 1 other ribbon with you are large and can use large weapons. They wade into combat.

longsword: Dwarf/Orc 1d8+mod LArge creature: 2d8+mod

Greataxe: Dwarf/Orc 1d12+mod Large Creature: 2d12+mod

Greatswrod: Dwarf/Orc 2d6+mod LArge Creature: 4d6+mod

Just eyeballing it, Large creatures essentially hit with a standard double dice critical hit on every single attack.

Essentially you are left with the PHB drow problem. You have to give a penalty that is so harsh, most people aren't going to want to play the race, because otherwise they are clearly better at combat than the other options.

 

[Charles Rampant]

I think that Yunru wins this round.

Using large weapons is, for these lads and Goliaths, avoided by making them Medium. It also avoids very annoying problems like them not being able to enter taverns, having disadvantage all the time in dungeon combats, and generally being an arse to fit into the game.