Fire variant barbarian - Any ideas?

[DamionW]

Furthermore, maybe get rid of Indomidable Will, or move it to a higher level too? Do you see that as being a core concept in this guy? I think with Uncanny Dodge at nice, and Indomidable Will Dropped, this Class would be fine. Thoughts?

Well, it's not core, but I see it helping them extend their rage, because the extension involves a Will save. I might be ready to drop that. By that level, his base Will save as well as Greater Rage already gives some decent boosts. Let me try progging things out differently...

 

[Nyaricus]

Well, it's not core, but I see it helping them extend their rage, because the extension involves a Will save. I might be ready to drop that. By that level, his base Will save as well as Greater Rage already gives some decent boosts. Let me try progging things out differently...

Yeah, thats what I was getting at, and thats why i said it.

Here's an idea, to balance out this guy, since he still gets Fire Resistance. Let his Rage ability, which normally only gives a flat +2 Will save give a +2 vs enchantments. Greater Rage improves this to +3, and Mighty Rage to +4 (vs enchantments). Indomidable Will gives +2 to Will Saves, and your Fire Barbarian still gets Fire Resistance.

This focuses the Barbarian a little bit more, but it makes sense. Barbarians are supposed to rush onto the field of battle and attack - why would they be thinking to perceive Illusions and the such?

How does that sound??

 

[Nyaricus]

Also, since this is a thread on Barbarians, I am going to toot my own horn and ask that those of you who have resonded to maybe take a look at my Berserker class, and its two PrC's. Much appreciated. Basically, it is a Nordic Saga-inspired warrior, with many different abilities than the standard barbarian. Feedback is very welcome!!

Link:http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=144925

Thanks again

 

[Thia Halmades]

Before I've read what anyone else posts, I want to do you the credit of responding directly full bore, so if I repeat, my apologies. But I didn't want other people's opinions clouding my own before I had a chance to actually respond. So.

1. Non-lawful to Non-good. I'm not big on alignment restrictions, personally, but I submit that non-lawful still makes more sense here. We've established fire doesn't "have to" be evil, nor does it "have to" be Neutral. I almost think "Must be chaotic" makes more sense, but that's JMHO.

2. Swim/Spot. Spot wasn't a class skill? What the...? Yeah, good call.

3. +Weapon Prof. Okay.

4. Removed speed? Fire is fast. I'd've left this alone, actually.

5. Huh. Cool.

6. Rage Extension: Er... *blink blink* Okay. I don't have a problem with it, per se, but what happens when he gets his mitts on something diabolical, like Flaming Burst Battle Axe that's perpetually on fire?

7. And added... Detect Flame? (a thought)

8. Endurance/Die Hard - don't forget to grant them Die Hard automatically if they are Granted Endurance by something else (I used something similar in my Half Orc rebuild).

9. Keep it simple and give them FR 5 @ 8th, 10 @ 16th. Again, JMHO.

Not counting possible combo abuse from a Flaming Burst weapon? I have no real issue with this. I can think of a number of things I'd've done differently that (again, being me) would be more reflective of the inner flame that they carry and acted as EX effects in a generally SU world structure because they'd be built in naturally. For example,

- grappling with a high level barbarian could inflict burn damage.
- A barbarian could channel their fire to heat metal (as the spell) at higher levels a few number of times per day.
- Barbarians can breathe normally in a smoke-filled environment, even through magical smoke & fire.

So those are my initial thoughts. Hope they help. In asnwer to your question, I'm not a big fan of barbarians to begin with, so giving them what you did to make them fit better into your world structure seems totally balanced to me. As I mentioned, the only one I saw so far and went "Dag. That's weak." was the Ranger, which is why I was more critical of it than any others. This looks good! Again, hope my additional notes are of some use to you.

 

[DamionW]

Hey Thia! Was wondering if you were going to weigh in...

1. Non-lawful to Non-good. I'm not big on alignment restrictions, personally, but I submit that non-lawful still makes more sense here. We've established fire doesn't "have to" be evil, nor does it "have to" be Neutral. I almost think "Must be chaotic" makes more sense, but that's JMHO.

It's what works with the cosmology/dogma of the campaign world. The azers recruit from orc and human barbarians to make Reapers of the Flame (A PrC I'm working on), which are the "guild enforcers"/ assasins of the Fire Realms. Those individuals are very ordered and lawful, but no barbarian is altruistic by nature, a basic precept of being Good. If others want to adapt this concept to other campaigns, they can set the alignment how they want, but non-good will work for me.

2. Swim/Spot. Spot wasn't a class skill? What the...? Yeah, good call.

Same thought here.

4. Removed speed? Fire is fast. I'd've left this alone, actually.

Nyaricus thought the same, so I'll find a way to put it back in.

6. Rage Extension: Er... *blink blink* Okay. I don't have a problem with it, per se, but what happens when he gets his mitts on something diabolical, like Flaming Burst Battle Axe that's perpetually on fire?

Well, it's still dependent on their Will save (not a strong suit for them), and pushing the limit results in exhaustion, which carries stiff penalties. Also, the upper cap is twice what their constitution would normally allow. If they push that, they're out of commision for a round, at least. I figure it really balances itself out IMO, but if enough people feel it's broken, I might reconsider.

8. Endurance/Die Hard - don't forget to grant them Die Hard automatically if they are Granted Endurance by something else (I used something similar in my Half Orc rebuild).

Not sure what builds in my game would allow that (not many rangers turning barbarian, etc.), but I'll allow it.

9. Keep it simple and give them FR 5 @ 8th, 10 @ 16th. Again, JMHO.

We'll see. Wasn't sure that 10 points wasn't pushing it, so I left it at 3 and 5

Not counting possible combo abuse from a Flaming Burst weapon? I have no real issue with this. I can think of a number of things I'd've done differently that (again, being me) would be more reflective of the inner flame that they carry and acted as EX effects in a generally SU world structure because they'd be built in naturally. For example,

- grappling with a high level barbarian could inflict burn damage.
- A barbarian could channel their fire to heat metal (as the spell) at higher levels a few number of times per day.
- Barbarians can breathe normally in a smoke-filled environment, even through magical smoke & fire.

So those are my initial thoughts. Hope they help. In asnwer to your question, I'm not a big fan of barbarians to begin with, so giving them what you did to make them fit better into your world structure seems totally balanced to me. As I mentioned, the only one I saw so far and went "Dag. That's weak." was the Ranger, which is why I was more critical of it than any others. This looks good! Again, hope my additional notes are of some use to you.

Nice ideas. Not sure I'll use them, but still cool. The Inner Flame idea is more a metaphysical concept than an actual "heat" effect as I see it. They see their anger as a source of power, that needs to be fueled and channeled, and they're the furnace. Just made sense to me. As for the windstalker, take a look at the latest post I made to adapt Kisanji's combat styles. I paired his Breeze/Cyclone concepts with some sensible feat chains. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to read all this and post feedback. It's through a concensus of ideas that point out the glaring flaws I miss.

 

[Nyaricus]

Actually, Damion, I would haev to go with Thia on this (not to be a prick, but for some reason, we always seem to end up being on the other side of a debate. Oh well, if it weren't for sides to debate on, there wouldn't be debates, would there be? ) For the breathe in Smoke-filled enviroments. In that case, i would drop the Fast Movement completely and add in the Fire Eyes and Breathe Freely (name suggestions, anyone??) ability.

If you don't like that man, just keep +5 Movement and Fire Eyes (assuming you took that suggestion . . .you never really said . .. hmmm )

 

[DamionW]

Are there mechanics anywhere for smoke related breathing hindrances? I couldn't remember any, so that's why I was a little hesitant...

 

[Thia Halmades]

You know, if there aren't, I'd write them in anyway. But checking ye olde SRD:

Originally Posted by SRD
From the spell Pyrotechnics, Smoke Cloud: A writhing stream of smoke billows out from the source, forming a choking cloud. The cloud spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take –4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.

Originally Posted by SRD
From the Environment section, Forest Fires, Smoke Inhalation: Forest fires naturally produce a great deal of smoke. A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Also, smoke obscures vision, providing concealment to characters within it.

Not like this is going to happen every round, but Smoke does grant concealment if nothing else, if it's thick enough. I see what you mean about the heat bit being integral to inner rage, but bear with me for a second, because I'm going to argue with you about what you wrote, which is a little ironic, but don't get offended, it's meant as a question, not a personal challenge. With that caveat.

We have a Paladin build who is very reflective of the Element that it encompasses; i.e., Water. Water grants it healing, as though it were a deity, because the world got tossed into a giant blender with liberal helpings of Elements. In my original volley of questions to you, we had established that the Elements, in a way similar to ... Titans, if you will, to borrow from the film Hercules for a second - borrow/take interest in the people in the world around them. So my understanding of your original vision was to really raise these classes outside of the norm and turn them into something both more refined and better defined.

You took the core Paladin, and turned it into something inherently cooler and that really fit into your world. The other two classes have seemed to lack the same 'punch' - they don't stand out quite as much as the first one, and that's why I've been more critical here than there. Bearing in mind, it's your world, you built it, I'm just tossing my coppers into the ring based on how I understood it from you in my initial posts. All of it is extremely well thought it, and if you want to keep it low-key, by all means, keep it low-key. But it seemed to me you were taking the non-standard classes and giving them something that really set them apart and made them integral to the world, instead of a couple of minor tweaks.

So that's where I'm coming from and why I'm over there in the first place. Obviously I want to help you achieve your vision for how this world will work, and as we discussed with your Ranger, they weren't as heavily modified as the Paladin (I will go double-check, I read your post). What I'm suggesting is that you just take this to its logical conclusion. Don't end their progression with them turning into elementals (although, if the world is far enough gone, that'd be an option) but consider that your concept is about this merger; how would long-term exposure affect people?

That's where I was going.

Nyaricus: We disagree at times. That's what keeps my day interesting.

 

[DamionW]

Thia-

Don't worry about me getting offended. It takes a lot more than a polite disagreement than that. Hope you're the same way (I believe you are). Now, for what you posted:

Good examples of smoke inhalation. I think I will put some kind of allowance for that in, roll it up with the Fire Eyes ability that already negates the concealment effects of smoke.

As for the Paladin seeming a "beefier" change, the mechanics really weren't that much more than minor tweaks. I simply took the Positive Energy effects of Detecting, Smiting, and Laying on Hands and changed them to a more Water-based mechanic like the Water domain cleric already has. Then I swapped Quench for Remove Disease, swapped a Create Water effect for disease immunity and altered their spell lists, taking out "holy" type of spells and replacing them with water effect spells. It seems like a massive overhaul, but really it wasn't that much mechanically. It's more of the in-depth discussion we had on the flavor of the paladin that made it seem such a drastic change. The Paladin, mechanically, is still a second-string combatant with some targetted supernatural and spell-like abilities to focus on a specific enemy (it just happens to be Fire enemies instead of Evil enemies).

Some of your opinions are based on the idea that I want to elevate these classes above what they were in the PHB. That's not exactly correct, I just needed to change the flavor and mechanics to place them where they would naturally lie in the elemental world order. The overall goal I have, though, is to make these variant classes not outshadow other base classes, nor the variant classes of another element in the game. I don't want a player to pick up my house rules and say, "I'm definitely going to play a Fire barbarian because their getting abilities A and B from the Fire element is clearly superior to the original barbarians X and Y abilities, or the windstalkers trade-off of abilities C and D they get from the Air element." I want them to see the PHB version of a paladin, or a ranger, or a barbarian, just defined for one element rather than as a general fantasy class.

I hope you see where I'm going: These classes should still feel like "core" classes. A lot of the abilities you've been suggesting definitely are strong on the elemental abilities and would be fun to play as a character, as well as add a lot of flavor to the campaign world. My concern is they are more of the province of elemental PrC abilities. To try and take a RAW barbarian and work all of these cool heat effects in, you'd have to find what to effectively trade out for them and still try to make it break even. It's especially hard considering they don't have many magic-related abilities in the first place. "Vanilla" fighters and rogues still exist in the campaign world, and there shouldn't be a particular disincentive to play them just because my houserules are more detailed for the variant classes.

If you and Nyaricus can help me figure out how to weight something like a fire damge grapple or a heat metal grasp against the trap-sense or uncanny dodge abilities "pound for pound" so to say, I'd be interested. However, to me you're then elevating the "supernatural" feeling of the barbarian far beyond what they were intended, a very primal, brute force style of warrior that relies on cunning instead of technique. The rage extension and fire resistance fit naturally into the order for a barbarian. These warriors become furious when they fight, losing control. Seeing burning flesh and ash just makes them more furious, losing sight of their limitations. Barbarians normally shrug off damage others would feel. These barbarians just happen to burn themselves enough to shrug that off to an even further extent. Fire grappling and metal heating are definitely good in the fire flavor department. They just don't seem to fit to me in the barbarian flavor department.

I hope this isn't coming off as dismissive. I appreciate the inputs you've been giving and you are helping me define my campaign world. All I want to try and keep clear on is balance and continuity for these concepts as basic, and not prestige classes.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Not at all dismissive - I said the same thing to RC. You wrote it, you're defending it. I'm on the outside, looking in. Until I know exactly where you're going, I'll just keep contributing as long as those contributions are helpful. If you ever look at an idea and say "Thia... that's just lame." Then say so! I don't need (or have an interest in) defending my view of your world; it's your world. I want to help you have a clearer view of it for when you run it.

So don't worry about it. If you're going for a revision of the core class, then yes, this is fine as it stands. Absolutely. I still think you should keep speed; even if you want to include the speed for when they rage only (i.e., pushing their bodies beyond their normal limits) you'd be doing well for that. That would give you the balance you were looking for without removing a strong tactical advantage Barbarians have.

And I beg to differ: Barbarians are CUNNING. They aren't necessarily clever, but they understand the dichotomy of needs & wants very well, and can play on those needs or drives. They have a knack for it. I'm not saying they'll think through all their problems, but they will think long enough to establish a cause/effect relationship then make with the beating.

I think, then, based on your post, I didn't get as much juicy flavorful goodness from this class as I did from the other one. However, if that's what you're going for, then it is by no means unbalanced. I would still incorporate the bits we already discussed, and you'll likely want to give them 'smoke breathing' and the 5/10 FR at 8th/16th isn't unbalanced, either, and looks better on paper than 3/5.