Pathfinder 1E Firearms?

[N'raac]

I don't need guns to one-shot people. But I do want them to feel like one of the most threatening weapons out there. I think PF does a good job with that, letting guns bypass armor at close range, but not dealing substantially more damage than a sword or crossbow.

The 4x crit multiple also makes the firearm feel more dangerous, even though a threat is only a 5% chance. I think Pathfinder balances things pretty well.

The three levels of Firearm frequency are also an interesting approach. Guns just coming in are an exotic weapon, so not a lot of characters are good with them. At "commonplace", they are Martial weapons, so warriors may consider these instead of their Longbows. Once they're "everywhere", they're simple weapons, so they can be "the great equalizer".

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I have a cop friend. He played in a D20 Modern game. By the end of the game, the martial artist/pugilist PC was doing more damage with her fists than my cop friend's PC did with his bullets. It did strain credulity somewhat.

I think the problem was less the gun rules and more the character growth rules. Boosting melee damage was easy - Strength (which you could boost with levels, apply larger bonuses for a two-handed weapon), Melee Smash (up to three times), and Living Weapon Boosts.

Boosting firearm damage involved taking levels of Soldier or Gunslinger, and either getting a +2 bonus or just getting a lot of shots. (The Gunslinger could spend an action point to do high damage, at level 10, which probably isn't as good as Fists of Iron.) The Soldier's bonus could even be applied to a melee weapon, adding insult to injury.

A pistol did the same damage as a greatsword, at range, with one hand, and of course did far more damage than Combat Martial Arts. (Realistically you'd use two hands, but you don't have to.) But noone who uses a greatsword or even a nightstick ever did the base damage. They'd get to apply Strength to it at the very least.

When I was running d20 Modern, I once ran a very boring encounter where some bodyguards provided very good protection to their principal but could deal pathetic damage with their pistols. (I gave them all Desert Eagle .50s, even though that's not remotely reasonable, just for the average +2 damage.) Feats that let you boost firearm damage (perhaps at the same rate as Living Weapon?) were sorely needed, and I started introducing that as a house rule to my game as a direct result of said dreary encounter.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

The rules for guns are fantastic and there is a chance that a gun will blow up in your face. I will also tell you that guns are very expensive and so is ammunition. Gunslingers don't walk around with infinite ammo so it's a very expensive class to play.

 

[Felorn Gloryaxe]

Yeah I too hear the gun rules are hit and miss. Literally. It also is fairly unrealistic how do you justify this:

Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can make a single firearm attack and choose part of the body to target. She gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that part cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform no matter which part of the creature she targets. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are immune to these effects.

• Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit but drops one carried item of the gunslinger's choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit.

• Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect.

• Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. Creatures that have four or more legs or that are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect.

• Torso: Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20.

• Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and must make a DC 20 Fly check or fall 20 ft.


When I think of a head shot I think of grey matter blowing out the back of their head not getting confused





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[ForeverSlayer]

Yeah I too hear the gun rules are hit and miss. Literally. It also is fairly unrealistic how do you justify this:

Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can make a single firearm attack and choose part of the body to target. She gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that part cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform no matter which part of the creature she targets. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are immune to these effects.

• Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit but drops one carried item of the gunslinger's choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit.

• Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect.

• Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. Creatures that have four or more legs or that are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect.

• Torso: Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20.

• Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and must make a DC 20 Fly check or fall 20 ft.


When I think of a head shot I think of grey matter blowing out the back of their head not getting confused





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Head Shot: The point of the head shot is to reflect the fact that the Gunslinger is so good that he can graze your head with a bullet. He isn't walking up to you, placing his gun against your temple and pulling the trigger.

Have you never seen trick shooters in action? Shooting stuff out of people's hands is something that can and has been done.

Grazing someone on the leg could cause them to fall and clutch their wound.

 

[Mad Hamish]

Yeah I too hear the gun rules are hit and miss. Literally. It also is fairly unrealistic how do you justify this:

Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can make a single firearm attack and choose part of the body to target. She gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that part cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform no matter which part of the creature she targets. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are immune to these effects.

• Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit but drops one carried item of the gunslinger's choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit.

• Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect.

• Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. Creatures that have four or more legs or that are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect.

• Torso: Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20.

• Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and must make a DC 20 Fly check or fall 20 ft.


When I think of a head shot I think of grey matter blowing out the back of their head not getting confused
​

There aren't too many people who'll survive being bitten by something the size of dragons either.
Pathfinder isn't realistic in terms of how damage works.

 

[N'raac]

There aren't too many people who'll survive being bitten by something the size of dragons either.
Pathfinder isn't realistic in terms of how damage works.

I'm always entertained by demands for realism in a game that accepts magic spells and dragons, just as a starting point. Comes back to an earlier comment questioning why, when we add a firearm, there's suddenly a need these be "realistic".

Is it realistic that the muzzle loader can be reloaded in 6 second while running 30' (and that's with no bonuses to reload time)? Probably not. But it's playable. How realistic is it that a mid level character can take half a dozen slashes from a broadsword and keep fighting, unimpeded? Or that crossbows can be reloaded just as rapidly, for that matter? And that's before we add feats to reduce reload time for either weapon!

Want really realistic guns? Make them do enough damage to be an instant kill to most opponents, and require a minute or two to reload. Then we'll get medieval gunnery back on track - you fire your gun at the onset of combat, then defend yourself with a melee weapon (most likely built into the firearm itself).

 

[gamerprinter]

I honestly know someone who has survived 2 gunshots in real life, and they're not dead. I knew someone who was stabbed once and is dead now. The assumption that a gunshot is going to kill you, and a sword swipe is something more surviveable is absolutely silly. Both are just as deadly, and both also just as likely surviveable. Firearms aren't more deadly, they are equally deadly to melee arms. For those crying for more realistic damage, the problem exists in the game without firearms, just as much as with firearms. The skewed idea that firearms should be more deadly in combat compared to melee weapons is not based on reality. In the real world a one shot kill or a one stab kill is just as likely. So it doesn't work that way in game, and it shouldn't one shot kill RPG gaming would be short and boring - who'd really want that?

 

[delericho]

Is it realistic that the muzzle loader can be reloaded in 6 second while running 30' (and that's with no bonuses to reload time)? Probably not. But it's playable. How realistic is it that a mid level character can take half a dozen slashes from a broadsword and keep fighting, unimpeded? Or that crossbows can be reloaded just as rapidly, for that matter?

Well, indeed. D&D starts off pretty unrealistic, and gets more unrealistic from there. If looking for "realistic" modelling of firearm damage (and reload times and the like), assume it's being fired at (and by) a first level character, and work from there.

Edit to add: it should, of course, be borne in mind that the above still wouldn't actually make firearms realistic, just a bit less unrealistic.

 

[Felorn Gloryaxe]

ForeverSlayer
You think I don't understand that? But the head shot thing is a load of crap IMO. If an adventurer is trying to kill something he isn't just gonna graze it.