Firing ranged weapons and rays

[Elf Witch]

There is an argument going on at our gaming table and I am hoping for some clarification on the rules.

Can you fire a ray or any ranged weapon into the square next to you? Or do you have to be at least ten feet away?

Also can you using combat casting to fire a ray to avoid the AOO?

 

[Dandu]

Ranged Attacks With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.

Ray


Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at.
If a ray spell has a duration, it’s the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

Nothing says you can't.

 

[irdeggman]

If targeting an enemy, you will almost always generate an AoO unless you cast defensively - and I think there are some special prestige class abilities or feats from other books that allow shooting a ranged weapon without generating an AoO.

But no minimum range is specified for either - it is just riskier to target someone adjacent to you in combat.

 

[irdeggman]

Also can you using combat casting to fire a ray to avoid the AOO?

Defensive casting - making a DC 15+ spell level concentration check was specificaly designed to do this (well any spell that is).

Now per the RAW you would technically generate 2 AoO - one for casting (which a succesful Defensive casting check negates) and another for making a ranged attack in melee (the attack part of the ray spell).

I personnally consider the attack part of the casting but technically it is different.

 

[Elf Witch]

Thank You. This was what I thought but was over ruled by the other players. The DM is new and she was unsure on how to rule it. So she went with you could not.

 

[radmod]

Now per the RAW you would technically generate 2 AoO - one for casting (which a succesful Defensive casting check negates) and another for making a ranged attack in melee (the attack part of the ray spell).

I personnally consider the attack part of the casting but technically it is different.

I've never heard anyone even come close to saying that casting a spell that does a ranged attack would technically generate 2 AoOs. I'm curious about how you've made that interpretation, or if there is a ruling somewhere I'm not aware of.
IIRC, spells say things like "you must hit with a ranged touch attack." You are not making an additional attack, it is part of the spell. Otherwise, it would be performing two standard actions, wouldn't it?

 

[irdeggman]

I've never heard anyone even come close to saying that casting a spell that does a ranged attack would technically generate 2 AoOs. I'm curious about how you've made that interpretation, or if there is a ruling somewhere I'm not aware of.
IIRC, spells say things like "you must hit with a ranged touch attack." You are not making an additional attack, it is part of the spell. Otherwise, it would be performing two standard actions, wouldn't it?

First off I said that this is how I view but the RAW is different.

RAW - Attack (Ranged) generates an AoO

Casting a spell generates an AoO

Basically the act of making the ranged attack (touch or normal doesn't matter) generates the AoO.

What this means is that every shot an archer makes generates an AoO (even when using a full attack).

So even though the full attack action itself doesn't generate an AoO making a ranged attack does. The full attack is used to make several ranged attacks.

Similar pattern to using the cast spell to make a ranged attack.

This is basically strict RAW.

Like I said I don't play it that way, but recognize it is actually a house-rule of mine. An archer generates 1 AoO when making a full attack, a caster generates 1 attack when making a ranged attack with his spell (the act of casting not of attacking) - but if he attacks in subsequent rounds using the same casting of the spell then it does generate an AoO each round when attacking.

 

[radmod]

I don't disagree with what you call a house rule. That is raw.

What I disagree with is your interpretation that casting a spell that has as part of its description a ranged touch attack as generating two AoOs.
Hopefully, I can explain what I mean. An AoO is generated for an action. Yes, some actions, particularly movement can provoke multiple AoOs from the same creature. However, casting a spell is a single action that has, as part of the action, a ranged touch attack. It is the entire spell that provokes. Essentially you are taking an action to cast a spell, not two actions to cast the spell.

I've certainly never heard of anyone attempting it in the manner you describe.
Consider the spells Acid Arrow, Magic Missile, and Fireball. Effectively, you do the same thing: cast a spell and point at a target/area. Yet, under your interpretation, Melf's provokes two AoOs. Magic Missile, technically, is not a ranged attack so it provokes only one. Likewise, Fireball.

Otherwise, a creature who can perform multiple AoOs would get two against Melf's or any other ray/ranged touch attack. Also some spells, I believe Spiritual Weapon, allow a ranged attack. Under your interpretation, those spells would provoke an AoO each time you redirected it since you would be performing a ranged attack. Yet, redirection, itself does not provoke.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't disagree with what you call a house rule. That is raw.

Complete Arcane pg 72

"Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects."

Rules Compendium pg 132
"Any spell that requires an attack roll is weaponlike. .. . weaponlike spells fall into twp categories - ranged spells and touch spells. Ranged spells include those that require ranged touch attack rolls, surch as rays and huyrled missile effects."

Rules Compendium pg 134

"You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon,. . .Intervening creatures can block your shot or provide cover for the creature you are aiming at."

What I disagree with is your interpretation that casting a spell that has as part of its description a ranged touch attack as generating two AoOs.
Hopefully, I can explain what I mean. An AoO is generated for an action. Yes, some actions, particularly movement can provoke multiple AoOs from the same creature. However, casting a spell is a single action that has, as part of the action, a ranged touch attack. It is the entire spell that provokes. Essentially you are taking an action to cast a spell, not two actions to cast the spell.

It is not strictly the "type" of action being used that generates an AoO it is the action of making an attack with a ranged weapon. A rules terminology peculiarity. For example an archer with multiple attacks is using a full attack action in order to do so with his longbow. The full attack action does not generate an AoO but attack (Ranged) does. Does he generate an AoO by attacking with his bow for attacking someone at range? Or ar you claiming that he does not generate an AoO when using the full attack but only when making a single attack?

PHB pg 135

Actions that provoke attacks of opportunity include moving
(except as noted below), casting a spell, and attacking with a ranged
weapon

.


It doesn't say attack action with a ranged weapon it says attacking with a ranged weapon.

I've certainly never heard of anyone attempting it in the manner you describe.
Consider the spells Acid Arrow, Magic Missile, and Fireball. Effectively, you do the same thing: cast a spell and point at a target/area. Yet, under your interpretation, Melf's provokes two AoOs. Magic Missile, technically, is not a ranged attack so it provokes only one. Likewise, Fireball.

If it requires an attack roll and deals damage or negative levels it is a weaponlike spell and functions like a weapon - otherwise it is a pure spell. Acid Arrow is a weaponlike spell that requries a ranged touch attack (hence it functions like a weapon) the other two do not.

Otherwise, a creature who can perform multiple AoOs would get two against Melf's or any other ray/ranged touch attack. Also some spells, I believe Spiritual Weapon, allow a ranged attack. Under your interpretation, those spells would provoke an AoO each time you redirected it since you would be performing a ranged attack. Yet, redirection, itself does not provoke.

Yup, just like when an archer makes multiple attacks he generates an AoO with each shot (same as redirecting) becasue each is an attack.

Magic Weapon is a weapon like spell - but it is not a ranged attack. Weapon is created and then it attacks using your BAB and Wis modifier. All ranged attacks use your Dex mod including rays. Even though it weapon like it is specifically excluding from some of the feats that are possible to use with weapon like spells (see spell entry for details).

 

[Persiflage]

As irdeggman says, spiritual weapon would not provoke an AoO (although it is not a weaponlike spell). Think of a ranged attack like this...

You drop your guard when you prepare for your shot and take aim. This provokes attacks of opportunity from every foe who threatens you at the time you make your ranged attack.

You're not having to stop and point your finger/aim your bow at a moving target with spells such spiritual weapon, you're just taking a move action to say to the spell "attack that guy, there". Doing so doesn't require you to carefully aim, only to be able to identify the subject; you can continue to bob and weave if you like. You do not make a ranged attack with Spiritual Weapon, nor is it a "weaponlike spell". It's just a spell.

It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon [...]
Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon.

Weaponlike spells are explicitly affected by feats, and ranged weaponlike spells (such as rays) provoke attacks of opportunity. It's about having to take the time in the press of combat to steady your aim and look for a gap in the chaos, as opposed to just saying "explode thirty feet away in that direction" or "go after the goblin in the chainmail". Spiritual weapon and similar spells such as mage's (Mordenkainen's) sword are no more ranged attacks than is telling a summoned monster to attack the biggest ogre.

Unfortunately, by RAW, someone casting a spell that culminated in a ranged attack would provoke two AoO's from a threatening opponent as the "casting of the spell" and "making a ranged attack" portions count as two opportunities. I house-rule it away: after all, you can run around in an opponent's threat squares and only provoke one attack (from that opponent anyway) so it seems a bit harsh to enforce double jeopardy on a spellcaster.

That said... I actually can't remember the last time I had someone in my gaming group try to cast a ranged attack spell whilst threatened