first time cleric needs to survive

[Nail]

It's one of the the most broken, most twinked builds in the game. Divine Metamagic, Persistant Spell, and Nightsticks? Come on man, you KNOW that most sane DMs will ban it,....

Agreed.

It's not present in our games.

 

[moritheil]

Excuse me for outright contradiction but you're wrong. I've been playing 3rd Edition since the week it came out, and I've never heard of it. Not everyone plays with noncore books, not everyone is a powergamer. Powergaming is a perfectly valid and fun way to play D&D, I'm sure, but there are many other perfectly valid and fun ways to play, and lots of people do so.

How am I wrong, then? I don't mean any offense, but it sounds like you're out of the loop with regard to build optimization. I wouldn't consider your situation at all typical with regard to character builders. Optimization is the context of this thread.

 

[pallandrome]

Well, you did say EVERYONE (emphasis mine) who isn't new knows of it and uses it (barring any bans). If he isn't lying about not being new, yet not knowing about the build, then what you said is demonstrably incorrect. It is also incorrect because I also do not use the build, even though it is allowed in one of the games, and I play a Cleric. Not that I have any problem with powergaming, mind you, just that I wasn't in the mood for it when I built the character.

 

[moritheil]

Well, you did say EVERYONE (emphasis mine) who isn't new knows of it and uses it (barring any bans). If he isn't lying about not being new, yet not knowing about the build, then what you said is demonstrably incorrect. It is also incorrect because I also do not use the build, even though it is allowed in one of the games, and I play a Cleric. Not that I have any problem with powergaming, mind you, just that I wasn't in the mood for it when I built the character.

Given his lack of knowledge, I would say that he's quite new to building characters in an effective manner.

Would you say that you never have used it to build a character, and will never use it to build a character? No? Then please stop attempting to define my position for me.

If any of you desire further communication on this subject, please start a new thread. Thanks.

 

[pallandrome]

Would you say that you never have used it to build a character, and will never use it to build a character? No? Then please stop attempting to define my position for me.

Well, kinda, yes. I've never used the build. I have no interest in doing so. I also have no interest in defining your position, I just don't like blanket statements very much. I'm also not going to start a whole new thread, just because I happen to disagree with someone on a point. It isn't that big of a deal.



Anywho, I'd suggest, as your first time playing a Cleric that you want to make survivable, three things:

1) Never prepare a Cure spell (and remember that Heal is not a Cure spell). This is something that a lot of new Clerics forget, but it's fairly important.

2) Play a dwarf in heavy armor. The extra HP and AC from doing so will be quite useful, and being able to see the baddies coming in the dark is VERY nice.

3) Let the Tank fight the heavy hitters. Be he a fighter, or a barbarian, or a pally, or whatever, the Tank will likely be a good deal better at going toe-to-toe with the big guys until you really get to know your character well.

 

[nittanytbone]

Dissenting opinion: DMM Persistent is a typical build. At this point, everyone who isn't new knows of it and uses it (barring DM forbiddance.) There are many more powerful builds. That said, it is a little complicated for a beginner.

Agreed... And that's why I suggested DMM Quicken, as well. It is often seen as much less abuseable, and besides, at 13th level, Quicken Spell is handy to have. Quickened Divine Favor is a staple of high level clerics.

The OP stated that "any books were allowed," the thread title was help me "Survive," and he mentioned there would be little gold. I took that to mean that he was entering a tough campaign and needed a reasonably strong build, so I threw out the optimized standard. DMM Persistent is pretty much THE way to go above level 7 if its not banned.

It is somewhat complicated, but I'd prefer to not patronize the OP. And honestly, its not that bad. You can reduce all those feats to say: "Make Righteous Might and Divine Power last for 24 hours or until dispelled by spending the spell slots and all of your turn attempts." Once the OP gets more comfortable with the spell system he can start trying different spells.

In any event, here are my "simpler" rules for "How to Not Screw up a Cleric:"

1) Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels. Almost no advantage that can be gained via multiclassing is NOT COMPARABLE. Trust me.
Corollary: Thou Shalt Not Play a race with ECL+1 or greater. Losing the caster level and HD is NOT made up for by your 133T Aasimar abilities.
Corollary: Thou Shalt Not Apply a template with ECL+1 or greater. Being a werebear is not worth it for a caster.

2) Thou Shalt Start with 15 WIS, and drop all stat boosts every four levels into Wisdom. This is necessary if you want to cast all your higher level spells on time. Plus, higher wisdom means more bonus spells = more stat buffs (Bull's STR, etc) to buff your other ability scores.

3) Thou Shalt Carefully Select Thy God. Pick a deity or belief/alignment that you can RP and have fun with, otherwise thy DM shall surely smite you for heresy.

I think as long as you follow those simple guidelines, you'll be fine. A totally unoptimized cleric is still stronger than, say, a Fighter 13.

Here's a few extra "intermediate" tips:

- A Cleric's most precious commodity is his FEATS. Clerics get no bonus feats. Therefore, being a Human is particularly advantageous as the bonus feat and skill points are quite attractive.

- Certain Feats are TRAPS. Avoid them at all costs. They include: Toughness (Friends Don't Let Friends Take Toughness -- Select Improved Toughness from the Complete Warrior Instead), Combat Casting (Take Skill Focus: Concentration instead), Improved Turning (at low levels, stuff is easily turned, at high levels, everything has Turn Resistance and unless you're super optimized for turning its useless), Martial Weapon Proficiency (almost never worth it, and there are better ways to get it such as PrCs or the War Domain), Weapon Focus (Usually not a great idea for most clerics, and locks you into a certain weapon), Brew Potion (Crafting Wondrous Items is much, much better).

- Skills: You're short on skill points. The only mandatory skill is Concentration so that you can cast your spells without interruption. Beyond that, at least 5 ranks in Knowledge Religion lets you empower your turn undead a little bit. Having a +5 modifier in Heal (including your high wisdom) lets you take 10 on most heal checks and pass.

- Get something to do with your Turn Undead attempts. Unless you're playing in Ravenloft, 90% of the time there will be no serious undead threat and one of your primary class abilities goes unused. Furthermore, at higher levels, many of the undead have turn resistance, are bolstered by high priests, etc. Because the turn mechanics are based on HD, a low-CR but high-HD monster like a giant elephant skeleton is nearly impossible to turn. So, you want something else to do with your Turn attempts.

Enter Divine Feats. Divine Metamagic (in my first post) is one of these feats. The Complete Divine and Complete Warrior have a good selection of others. Of particular note, IMHO, are Divine Might (CHA to Damage), Divine Vigor (+10' move speed and 2 HP/level), and Sacred Boost (maximizes all nearby healing spells). Selecting a Divine Feat gives you a lot of flexibility.

- Carefully select your domains. Look for (1) good spells that you want to cast, especially spells that clerics can't normally access and (2) strong granted abilities. Luck & Travel are the poster children: Luck has an awesome granted ability, and Travel lets you get access to excellent spells such as Fly and Teleport, as well as having a useful granted ability (Grapple-B-Gone). Strength is handy at lower levels for the Enlarge Person spell. War can be handy if the deity offers a good martial weapon that you must have. Planning/Undeath are useful for DMM abuse. Elf is good for Cleric Archers.

- A simple, non-traditional cleric build is that of the Cleric-Archer. Race: Elf. Ability Scores: Same as normal, but must have 13 Dex. Domains: Elf. Feats: Point Blank Shot (domain), 1-Rapid Shot, 3-Precise Shot, 6-Zen Archery, 9-Weapon Focus (Longbow), 12-Quicken Spell

I only suggest Weapon Focus in this build because with Rapid Shot you get extra attacks, and the +1 to hit stacks on each of them. Craft Magic Arms and Armor might be good for you too so that you can make your own magical arrows cheap (Bane arrows are great).

- Ability Scores: Clerics suffer from MAD. I.E., they rely on many ability scores. This is what I'd suggest in terms of priority:
1) WIS - Must be at least 15 at start. Higher if you plan on throwing offensive spells, but most clerics focus on buffs.
2) CON - You are a melee combatant. 14 CON is good.
3) CHA - If you plan on using DMM or Divine Feats, this should be fairly high. Otherwise, dump it to 8. It doesn't matter at all if you aren't using Divine Feats.
4) STR - Clerics are melee combatants. 14 STR is good.
5) DEX - You're going to wear full plate. 12 DEX is good to max out your AC. If you plan on being a cleric archer, you need 13 DEX to qualify for Rapid Shot.
6) INT - You don't get many SP, but you don't have many skills worth investing in, either. And you have to dump something.

 

[shurai]

If any of you desire further communication on this subject, please start a new thread. Thanks.

I think that's a good idea. : ]

Edit: Added a link!

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3499070

 

[Mistwell]

Dissenting opinion: DMM Persistent is a typical build. At this point, everyone who isn't new knows of it and uses it (barring DM forbiddance.) There are many more powerful builds. That said, it is a little complicated for a beginner.

I disagree. I think the number of games that bans that combo is greater than 50%. And of the remaining games, I think a good chunk are not even aware of it yet, and would ban it if they became aware of it.

I think that combo is vastly over-represented on boards like this one. But I don't think it is a "typical" build. In fact, I think it's in the top ten of atypical builds for clerics. It's always mentioned BECAUSE it is so broken - not because everyone uses it.

Nor are there "many" more powerful builds. In virtually every cleric-themed optimization build on the WOTC optimization board, that one is mentioend.

 

[kelson]

thanks again for the help guys. I asked the DM if I could use the "broken" build you guys have been talking about. he laughed at me... I guess that one would be a no no...

 

[Mistwell]

Wow, good idea. Arguably as powerful, and simpler.



Thanks, and thanks also for the suggestions. My call for Quick Draw was based on my experience playing a cleric in an Eberron game as run by the most knowledgeable DM I've ever played with. He knew all sorts of ways to make in-game choices tougher, just by adhering to the RAW. This is how I came to believe that Quick Draw is good for Clerics.

While wearing a large shield, you can't transfer your weapon to your shield-hand momentarily while you cast spells with the other hand, which means you have to sheath it. Assume you've just cast a spell and want to melee afterwards; your weapon is sheathed and you want to draw it again. Reducing that to a free action with Quick Draw allows the next round to be a Full Attack, which will double the number of attack rolls in this case.

It can matter in other situations too, such as mixing wand usage with melee. Anyway, what do you think? Worth it in that context?

Kelson, if you like my build for your character, Mistwell's advice about the axes or hammers is right, in a way: They're good flavor for dwarves, but ruleswise they're about as good as any of the other weapons you'd have to spend a feat for. Go ahead and do it if you want your character to be more smashy than spelly. : ]

I'm not familiar with non-core material; where's Ranged Spell? Also, how does it work?

Ah now I see what you are getting at with quick draw.

We always play that a buckler or light shield, as opposed to a heavy one, leaves one hand free enough to be able to do the somatic componants of a spell, or transfer a weapon to that hand to use the other to cast the spell. If your DM is not allowing that, then yes quick draw would suddenly become very useful for this build.

As for the axe or hammer...I was thinking that if he chose war domain, which grants martial proficiency with the diety's weapon and weapon focus with it as well, then hammer or axe was the way to go. Clanggedin Silverbeard is a dwarven diety of war, and his favored weapon is the battleaxe I believe. However, if he is not going with the war domain, then I agree the heavy mace or morningstar are probably the best weapons to go with.

On the issue of "Ranged Spell", that was my bad (typo). It's "Reach Spell", it's from Complete Divine, P 84, and it turns a touch spell into a 30 ft ray. That means you can heal your fallen ally from range, when it becomes necessary.