First time making a "serious" dungeon! How do you do it?

[Imaculata]

Multi-floor dungeons are definitely something I think more DM's should experiment with. Early in my pirate campaign, I confronted my players with a multi-floor dungeon in the form of an ancient city by the sea. The players started at the top floor, and slowly worked their way down. The further down they got, the more sections submerged by water they would encounter. But one of the key mechanics of the dungeon, was that some floors could collapse under the weight of multiple players, and drop the players down a level. Once the players figured this out, they started thinking about how they could turn this detail to their advantage. They started thinking 3 dimensionally, and figuring out how they could reach seemingly unreachable areas of the dungeon, via a different floor.

Once you throw multiple floors into the mix, a simple dungeon map becomes a lot more complicated. It also allows the players to think outside the box. What if we break the floor with explosives? What if we use our grappling hook to reach the floor above us? And the DM will not be forced to tell them they cannot do that, because he knows the lay out of the floors and how they line up, so they totally can do that.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6801286]Imaculata[/MENTION] Yes, verticality / 3-dimensions makes for a much more interesting dungeon.

I've worked out a very rough concept for the map based around 3 levels. It's sort of a weird mashup of 2-D and 3-D right now, just so I can get everything down.

I think the room connections mostly make sense. For example, definitely want guard posts near the Gate of Mysteries, the Infernal Hall (Throne Room), and the Dungeons. It kind of makes sense to have a fumarole running by the Distillery, Smithy, and Insect Farm which might benefit from more humid/hotter conditions. The Council Chamber probably wants access to the Great Gardens (for recesses/wine) and direct access to the Infernal Hall (Throne Room). The Barracks should open to the Training Grounds. The Initiation Chamber makes sense as connecting to the Great Garden "of paradise" (where initiates are brainwashed) and to the Portal to Fire since to become a full-fledged flame mage they are sent on a rite of passage to the Plane of Fire.

Any ideas for how this layout might be improved?

I feel like the Alchemy Lab could use at least one more connection, rather than being a "dead-end" room (albeit an interesting dead-end). What should it connect to? An existing room or a new one?

What about the room/area in the upper left connecting the watch towers, the Teleportation Tower, the Shig'harakh Quarters, and the Summoning Chamber? What might be an interesting fit for that space? A wyvern aerie maybe?

And I'm considering moving the Sacred Ruins to more or less underneath the Shrine to Kossuth, which mimics how emergent religions often build over old sacred sites. Good idea?

EDIT: Possibly the Training Grounds could be expanded upon with different areas (e.g. assassin/rogue training, mamluk/soldier drilling, and various arcane training sub-areas for wizards)?

 

[Quickleaf]

Trying to pin down the demographics of Krak al-Mazhar. How does the following look?

Krak al-Mazhar houses roughly 600 members of the Brotherhood of True Flame and their slaves. The equivalent of a village. The occupying NPCs (not counting allied/bound monsters) can roughly be divided into:

40% (240) slaves (commoners) (0th level) (CR 0)
12% (72) cultists in training as fedayeen (1st/2nd level) (CR 1/8)
12% (72) guards in training as mamluks (1st/2nd level) (CR 1/8)
18% (108) mamluks of the Imperishable* (3rd level) (CR 2)
3% (18)cult fanatics aiding priesthood (4th level) (CR 2)
6% (36) Flamedeath fedayeen* (7th level) (CR 4)
6% (36) shig’harakhi* (7th level) (CR 6)
0.85% (5) priests of Kossuth* (10th level) (CR 6)
0.5% (3) aghas of the Imperishable* (12th level) (CR 6)
0.5% (3) black flame zealot assassins* (12th level) (CR 9)
0.5% (3) disciples of the salamander* (12th level) (CR 5)
0.5% (3) khaz’harakhi* (12th level) (CR 9)
0.15% (1) The Bonfire* (20th level) (CR ?, probably 17+)

 

[Quickleaf]

Little bit more progress on the concept map...

• Moved Sacred Ruins (bottom left) to be under the Shrine to Kossuth, and gave them a more interesting approach requiring climbing and crossing a viaduct/bridge.
• Clarified the space in the (upper left) is a Shadow Wyvern Aerie. I was thinking about flying monkeys as aerial security for some reason, but those didn't seem right for the desert. So I went with wyverns using a modified shadow dragon template (see below).
• Added Resplendent Chambers (upper right) for high-ranking mages & aghas and visiting efreeti emissaries.
• Listed out my currently brainstormed Frequent Areas & Numbered Areas.

Fun bit of design...

[SECTION]Variant Monsters: Shadow Wyvern
While wyverns are not native to the Great Anvil, the Brotherhood has raised their own breed warped by magics drawing upon the blue fires of Krak al-Mazhar. These “shadow wyverns” gain resistance to fire and necrotic damage, and gain double their proficiency bonus in Stealth (+6). Additionally, they gain the Carry Prey, Living Shadow, Shadow Stealth, Shadowflame Poison, and Sunlight Sensitivity traits. The wyvern’s CR increases to 9 (5,000 XP).

Carry Prey. The wyvern’s speed is not halved when flying off with Medium creatures it has grappled.

Living Shadow. While in dim light or darkness, the wyvern has resistance to all damage except force, psychic, and radiant damage.

Shadow Stealth. While in dim light or darkness, the wyvern can take the Hide action as a bonus action.

Shadowflame Poison. A creature suffering poison damage from the wyvern’s stinger is wreathed in blue fire; at the start of each of its turns the creature suffers 1d6 necrotic damage and 1d6 fire damage. Casting greater restoration or remove curse on the creature ends the blue fire, as does dousing them with holy water as an action, or immersion in a body of water. If the creature is reduced to 0 hit points by the blue fire, it is reduced to ashes and the wyvern regains 24 (7d6) hit points.

Sunlight Sensitivity. While in sunlight, the wyvern has disadvantage on attack rolls as well as Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.[/SECTION]

I was inspired by this piece of art by Kate Pfeilschiefter.

 

[Imaculata]

Drawing inspiration from various concept art sources is a great way to form a picture of what the dungeon might look like. I often do this as well for inspiration. What I'll do, is I start writing a short description for each key location, which describes what it looks like, what it feels like, and some simple backstory to go along with it. This helps to flesh out the locations.

For example, I recently wrote this lengthy description of the island Dunster Hollow:

Dunster Hollow



Unlike the surrounding islands, it doesn't seem like anyone wants to live on Dunster Hollow. Not even cannibals. Dunster Hollow is a dark island, strange, mysterious, and deadly. It is surrounded by deadly whirlpools, caused by the strange shape of the seafloor, and the raging storms. As a result, the coast of the island is littered with ship wrecks. It makes the island look quite foreboding. But beyond the wooden carcasses that decorate the shores, there is a vast dense jungle. Dunster Hollow has some of the toughest, darkest and densest jungles in the Emerald Coast. The vines are thick, there are parasites everywhere, and it feels like the jungle itself is trying to slow adventurers deliberately. It has steep cliffs and drops and is quite mountainous, especially towards the western side.

The island has earned a dark reputation because of all these factors, but perhaps strangest of all is the abundance of parrots on the island. This is why the island is also often called Parrot Island. It is believed that perhaps the many beached ships brought a variety of pets onto the island, and that they have been breeding like crazy ever since. Whatever the reason, if sailors manage to overcome the island's deadly coast, they find themselves greeted by hundreds of parrots at every turn.

But there are also dangers on the island itself. While the old ruins on the island have long been abandoned, their animated stone guardians, called Chaukeedaar, still remain. At night they patrol the jungle, and attack any unwelcome guests. When darkness sets upon the island, the dangerous undead Watoto also start roaming the ruins. There’s one large ruined city in particular, called Gizakina, which is crawling with dangerous creatures, and surrounded by a deep flooded crater. It is located in the center of the island, in the middle of the densest part of the jungle. At night many lights can be seen moving across the island. They are Hydra’s servants, using the cover of darkness to carry their corruption from the temple to the central city. During the day they turn to stone.
There’s also a peaceful mermaid race, called the Jengu, that lives underneath the island, and occasionally comes to the surface via the island’s many ponds and lakes. But some of them have been corrupted by Hydra's influence, and have become something different and far more sinister; the deadly Rusalka.

My descriptions are usually not quite as lengthy as this one. But there were a lot of details to cover. This description is not one I would literally read to my players. Instead, it is one that I read myself to remind myself of important details, so my telling is consistent from session to session (and to get in the right mindset). Some of the important names that are dropped in the text, have their own descriptions as well, later on in the document.

Often I'll also look up some fitting artwork to go along with the description. Again, this is not something I feel I need to show to my players. It is purely there for myself as something to fall back on.

I think it might be a helpful aid for your dungeon to follow this same approach. What do the areas look like, and how would you describe it to yourself?

Lets start for example with the Dragon Aerie, and how it connects to the upper gardens. What sort of environment is the Aerie located it? You mentioned a desert, but there are many kinds of desert. Is it a rocky area, sandy, or perhaps covered in salt? What sounds do the players hear? What is the weather usually like here? What is the overall mood? Can the players see the upper gardens from the entrance at the Aerie, or is it all obscured by a vast complex? This also raises an important question: Is the garden an interior or exterior location?

 

[tk32]

Interesting concept. I'm using 3d Printed dungeon models that I'm printing and assembling myself. They are stackable for multilevel dungeons. I've finally got enough pieces printed and assembled to build a 12 room dungeon with 1-2 rooms on an upper floor.

I'm hoping to print enough for a 30-40 room multilevel with bridge crossings, traps, and intricate design with pieces that are secret doors, leading to hidden chambers, alcoves, new dungeons, etc.


I don't think of dungeons as casltes or fortresses. I am working towards a 5th edition level 16-20 dungeon. The Doomvaults of Thay. All the Thayan secrets hidden and guarded for all time deep within a dungeon in the middle of the land of the dead. Magic experimentation, portals to hell planes, deals with master devils, demons, and the like, with a final boss a legendary boss that is looking to perform a coup of Thay and overthrow the current ruler.. One of the most powerful liches to ever exist. That has made deals with primal forces of evil to gain his power. He'll have a dragon lich as a companion, and have had time to enchant the entire dungeon and with powerful forces of magic, creating a lair that bends at the will of the lich. Finally, if the PCs succeed in penetrated deep into the heart of the lair and somehow defeat the lich, there will be a full second round of battle.... Where the lich reactivates as a demi lich....

Round 1 will be the draconic lich.
Round 2 will be the lich master himself.
Round 3 will be the lich reforming into a demi lich...

As DM, it will be my job to ensure these battles, and the dungeon itself whittle at the PCs resources and they are forced to make sacrafices, decisions, alliances, with denizens of evil, or have no place to rest and die from exhaustion and/or just succomb to the brutality of the evil that exists within these doomvaults.

In all I anticipate around 600 piece 3d printed dungeon tiles with traps, secret doors, bridges, etc. I do what you're doing, draw it out, label the rooms, then start populating the rooms with creatures. The dungeon is not so much a fortress as it is, in my case, a massive secret hideout to build up the powerful forces necessary to overthrow a political leader. The dungeon is not designed to be a defensive structure so much as a structure to suit the needs of a mad scientist or organization.

I'd equate it to the underground hideouts that military dictators have used in WWII in Germany, or the underground hideouts of Iraq, etc. These are places that are meant to be able to hide a small population, not to be a castle that requires a military army to storm.

 

[Quickleaf]

For example, I recently wrote this lengthy description of the island Dunster Hollow:

Wonderfully written sketch of the island!

My descriptions are usually not quite as lengthy as this one. But there were a lot of details to cover. This description is not one I would literally read to my players. Instead, it is one that I read myself to remind myself of important details, so my telling is consistent from session to session (and to get in the right mindset). Some of the important names that are dropped in the text, have their own descriptions as well, later on in the document.

I really like what you say about "getting in the right mindset." To me, that's a huge part of successful DMing. If I understand the site, even if I forget details or mess up a particular encounter, I'm still messing up through that lens of understanding, so the game will still feel on theme, still be hitting the atmosphere and motifs of the rugged haunted Parrot Island (or whatever the adventure site is).

There's a school of thought that advocates for quick-read style bullet point descriptions so DMs can quickly grok what they need. I think you can support "getting in the right mindset" that way, but it requires more from the writer's prose; in other words, it's easier to "get the DM in the right mindset" using natural prose both from a writer's and reader's standpoint.

Often I'll also look up some fitting artwork to go along with the description. Again, this is not something I feel I need to show to my players. It is purely there for myself as something to fall back on.

Indeed, I do the same.

I think it might be a helpful aid for your dungeon to follow this same approach. What do the areas look like, and how would you describe it to yourself?

Lets start for example with the Dragon Aerie, and how it connects to the upper gardens. What sort of environment is the Aerie located it? You mentioned a desert, but there are many kinds of desert. Is it a rocky area, sandy, or perhaps covered in salt? What sounds do the players hear? What is the weather usually like here? What is the overall mood? Can the players see the upper gardens from the entrance at the Aerie, or is it all obscured by a vast complex? This also raises an important question: Is the garden an interior or exterior location?

Absolutely. Thanks for prompting me. I tend to visualize stuff so intensely that I forget to put it into writing (which can lead to me forgetting to describe it to my players).

General Environmental Conditions. The Great Anvil, at whose heart lies Krak al-Mazhar built into the ridge of a caldera, is inhospitable desert. Water is incredibly scarce and rain comes only once or twice a year. The foraging DC for the Great Anvil is 25 (see DMG p. 111). Temperatures during the day soar over 130° F (54° C), while at night they plummet to below freezing (see DMG p. 110). Sandstorms wrack the Great Anvil almost weekly. On a clear day, visibility is about 2 miles. Ruins litter the desert, including open-air strongholds once inhabited by desert giants, tombs dating back to the time of Al-Anwahar (the ancient civilization from which Krak al-Mazhar was constructed), and secret vaults of Brotherhood mages.

Shadow Wyvern Aerie. Where the minarets and towers of Krak al-Mazhar emerge from the caldera they are carved into, they are scarcely visible, being built from the same volcanic rock and hardened ash that makes up the rest of the caldera. The shadow wyvern aerie provides one mostly open-air flat spot that flying creatures (or the most reckless of climbers) can access. Winds whip through here, kicking up intermittent sprays of ash and salt, which pool around the base of old pillars supporting heavy arches and roosting places for the shadow wyverns. Due to the rough play of the wyverns, usually one or more of these pillars and arches is toppled. The sounds of their snarls, snoring, yawns, and screeching mingle with the sound of hissing sands. Sometimes the bloody scent of a wyvern's recent kill fills the aerie, and at these times they can either be found contentedly feasting or squabbling among one another for scraps.

Connections. From the aerie, there are three sandstone viaducts spanning uneven treacherous volcanic gullies and trenches. One bad fall here could leave a creature impaled or careening down the caldera's steep ridge. These open-air viaducts lead to two watchtowers and to the teleportation tower. At the eastern end of the aerie are two large recessed doors going indoors, one leading to the Shig'harakhi Quarters (lesser flame mages) & the other to the long hallway leading to The Great Garden; this hallway is separated from the Summoning Chamber (where mages practice spells) by a perforated lattice wall like a mashrabiya or jali; peering through the lattice allows one to catch only the vaguest glimpses of spellcasting and conjured creatures. However, an enchantment distorts all sound passing through the lattice, so the voices sound garbled as if echoing, faint, and swallowed by crackling flames all at the same time.

The Great Garden. It's wholly an interior location, which is why there's an illusion of the sky on the inside of its domed ceiling. However, the exterior of its roof dome is just visible emerging from the caldera rock up top.

I'd equate it to the underground hideouts that military dictators have used in WWII in Germany, or the underground hideouts of Iraq, etc. These are places that are meant to be able to hide a small population, not to be a castle that requires a military army to storm.

Wow! Sounds like quite the ambitious hobby project you've got there. I take it you're happy with the pieces you've been 3-D printing?

Yes, those sorts of hideouts are a good model for villainous lairs, and fit how I'm envisioning my dungeon as well.

 

[Imaculata]

That is a beautiful description Quickleaf. Now I have (I think) an accurate picture of what the dungeon looks like. I can just imagine some of the towers barely sticking out of the caldera, and the visage of their outline wobbling against the hot desert air during the day. The Dragon Aerie as I now see it, is a mostly flat plateau supported by crumbling pillars and arches. Crossing the bridges that connect to it, could be a treacherous affair, with the powerful gusts of wind, the swarms of dragons, and the dilapidated ruins.

If the dragons are cold-blooded, maybe they are inactive during the cold desert nights? This would be an interesting strategic element for the players to use. And I can imagine it being quite suspenseful to try and sneak past a big aerie full of mostly inactive dragons. What effect would this have on the guard duties at the complex? Would they lower the watch on this side during the day, and increase the watch at night?

And this climate can also give us ideas for the architecture. Maybe any exterior facing windows in the towers have storm shutters, against the sand storms that often engulf the complex. And maybe some of the bridges towards the towers have drawbridges, to completely block access to the towers from certain directions. Some of the connections that you've drawn on the map could be one-way due to raised drawbridges, which the players can only lower from one side.

So here's a thought. Maybe the entrance from the gate of mysteries is the most well guarded point of entry? (because it seems to be the most obvious point of entry) The Dragon Aerie could be less guarded, because it is considered a natural obstacle. (maybe they don't expect people to try and enter from this side) And the entry from the caverns could have mostly guard patrols. This makes all the three points of entry unique in terms of their security levels.

 

[Quickleaf]

That is a beautiful description Quickleaf. Now I have (I think) an accurate picture of what the dungeon looks like. I can just imagine some of the towers barely sticking out of the caldera, and the visage of their outline wobbling against the hot desert air during the day. The Dragon Aerie as I now see it, is a mostly flat plateau supported by crumbling pillars and arches. Crossing the bridges that connect to it, could be a treacherous affair, with the powerful gusts of wind, the swarms of dragons, and the dilapidated ruins.

Thanks! Totally, I'm glad you got the picture I was aiming for.

If the dragons are cold-blooded, maybe they are inactive during the cold desert nights? This would be an interesting strategic element for the players to use. And I can imagine it being quite suspenseful to try and sneak past a big aerie full of mostly inactive dragons. What effect would this have on the guard duties at the complex? Would they lower the watch on this side during the day, and increase the watch at night?

Well, cold blooded creatures are about temperature regulation...and wyverns (in 5e at least) have darkvision...so I'm picturing them as being crepuscular, that is, being active/hunting in the twilight hours before dawn and after dusk.

And this climate can also give us ideas for the architecture. Maybe any exterior facing windows in the towers have storm shutters, against the sand storms that often engulf the complex. And maybe some of the bridges towards the towers have drawbridges, to completely block access to the towers from certain directions. Some of the connections that you've drawn on the map could be one-way due to raised drawbridges, which the players can only lower from one side.

Absolutely, there would be the equivalent of storm shutters for the few exterior windows. Due to the hostile exterior, need to regulate temperatures, and presence of some shafts/fissures to the surface providing air flow, I suspect that any such windows would be pretty rare. While I like the idea of drawbridges...these are old stone structures, many carved from the hardened ash, volcanic rock, and sandstone...the idea of a drawbridge usually makes me think of wooden materials which don't quite fit.

So here's a thought. Maybe the entrance from the gate of mysteries is the most well guarded point of entry? (because it seems to be the most obvious point of entry) The Dragon Aerie could be less guarded, because it is considered a natural obstacle. (maybe they don't expect people to try and enter from this side) And the entry from the caverns could have mostly guard patrols. This makes all the three points of entry unique in terms of their security levels.

Totally, that's kind of what I was thinking as well.

It makes me think that with the Teleportation Tower as a point of possible entrance that it might be a good idea (from a playability / meaningful differentiation angle) to not have the Teleportation Tower's only immediate connection be the Shadow Wyvern Aerie. Otherwise, the choice of casting teleportation circle to reach the dungeon isn't too substantively different from flying into the wyvern aerie.

 

[Imaculata]

Well, cold blooded creatures are about temperature regulation...and wyverns (in 5e at least) have darkvision...so I'm picturing them as being crepuscular, that is, being active/hunting in the twilight hours before dawn and after dusk.

They can be anything you want them to be. Its your call.

While I like the idea of drawbridges...these are old stone structures, many carved from the hardened ash, volcanic rock, and sandstone...the idea of a drawbridge usually makes me think of wooden materials which don't quite fit.

You could explore the idea of some alternate means of lowering and raising stone bridges. Maybe massive ancient stone statues can raise slabs of stone by means of chains, fed through the arms of the statues. Or maybe the complex uses some magical means of floating pieces of stone into place? Alternatively, maybe they did use wooden drawbridges at some point, but they've been worn away by time, leaving only rusty chains and a large gap.

You could even explore the idea that maybe the Dragon Aerie isn't an intended entrance to the complex. Maybe some sort of ancient dried up aquaduct runs through the Aerie, and the players would need to find a way inside the structure to reach the caldera.

It makes me think that with the Teleportation Tower as a point of possible entrance that it might be a good idea (from a playability / meaningful differentiation angle) to not have the Teleportation Tower's only immediate connection be the Shadow Wyvern Aerie. Otherwise, the choice of casting teleportation circle to reach the dungeon isn't too substantively different from flying into the wyvern aerie.

That makes sense.