Five Nations (especially Knight Phantom)

[Bront]

Much better Drothgery. I'll mull that one over.

 

[Bront]

I meant Knight Phantom, pardon me.

What I'm saying is that the EK is too weak compared to the core classes, so that while I agree the KP is a better choice, I don't think the KP is too strong. I also think spending a feat on still spell is a bigger deal than you suggest, especially if neither Wizard nor Fighter is part of your build -- feats can get pretty tight!

I think the EK is fairly well balanced. Yes, you give up 2 caster levels, but you get 2 fighter feats, 1 D10 HD and 10 D6 HD, and 11 full BAB levels. My only complaint about it actualy is that it doesn't give you casting in light armor, and only goes up 10 levels, which means you're screwed at level 17 when you run out. Heck, one of my most powerful characters was an EK in a home campaign, with his bow feats and wizard firepower and buffs, he was phenominal, especialy with ray spells.

I'll think on it, but I disagree that EKs are weak.

Your PK to cleric compairison, you're getting the same HP (True, you get there with a bit less, but we're compairing the direct level gain), yes they can only use light armor, but they're using arcane spells, which generaly are more powerful than divine spells of equivilent level. And you're gaining multiple different spell like abilities instead of just turning. The only downside is the second good save, but you have full BAB on the cleric, so it's close to the cleric, but I'd give it the edge in general utility.

Compaired to Psionic Warrior? Better BAB, same HP, better casting for the most part, and spell like abilities instead of feats. I'd say it's better, other than the armor restriction.

 

[Patlin]

Well, it seems clear we're going to continue to disagree on the power level of the class. However, the part I like about it is really the phantom steeds... a 15 hp deficit at level 20 isn't really a dealbreaker.

While I'd rather see it aproved as written, I'd still ask for some version of the class to be aproved, even if with a lowered HD.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Still spell as a req is a little harsher than not having it there, especially as the KP will never use it after 1st. I'd be interested in seeing it compares to the spellsword and bladesinger, which allowed WoTC to do the EK right.

Huh? The Bladesinger is terrible and the Spellsword is poor as well. The Eldritch Knight clearly outclasses both of them (except perhaps for a 1 level dip in Spellsword)

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, it seems clear we're going to continue to disagree on the power level of the class. However, the part I like about it is really the phantom steeds... a 15 hp deficit at level 20 isn't really a dealbreaker.

While I'd rather see it aproved as written, I'd still ask for some version of the class to be aproved, even if with a lowered HD.

The Eldritch Knight is by no means underpowered, especially when you have two EK-like classes to mess with. That said, it is a little bit devoid of powers, like the Mystic Theurge, and could have a few extra added on without making it go over the top. For the Knight Phantom, I consider the Still Spell prereq to basically be allowing you to get Still Spell and a special form of Battle Caster that works for Light armour for the price of one (a great deal). Thus, the other abilities are all totally free. And I don't have a problem with this. But back when I semi-okayed the class, I didn't notice the HD switch (The new format hides the HD and skill points per level too much, grr!). This is too much--I agree with Bront. Knock it down to d6 and keep all the abilities and the class is fair. By the way, it would be a 10 HP deficit, not 15, unless you figured out how to take epic levels in KP before level 20 (if so, do tell!)

 

[stonegod]

Huh? The Bladesinger is terrible and the Spellsword is poor as well. The Eldritch Knight clearly outclasses both of them (except perhaps for a 1 level dip in Spellsword)

I know of their existence, I have not looked at them, thus the question.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I know of their existence, I have not looked at them, thus the question.

Ahhhh. Yeah, the Bladesinger is a poor joke. The abilities are uninspiring enough that the extreme loss of spellcasting levels is quite cruel--I tend to just give most the levels back, which incidentally makes it a pretty cool class. Spellsword gets some very useful abilities to negate ASF chance, but it loses half the casting levels. Fortunately, it loses the even half, so if you can sneak into the first level, I believe you can wear Blended Quartz Twilight Full Plate (or maybe also Mithral) without any problem.

 

[Bront]

RA: Coments on Drothgery's Pyromancer fix?

 

[Rystil Arden]

RA: Coments on Drothgery's Pyromancer fix?

What are the Pyromancer's saves normally? Does it have the two strong ones? Also, what did the old Smiting Spell progression look like? Just one less per day at each level?

Edit: Wait, I just realised I decided that I didn't like it for a kind of unusual reason--it punishes Paladin4/Sor6 who take the class.

 

[drothgery]

What are the Pyromancer's saves normally? Does it have the two strong ones? Also, what did the old Smiting Spell progression look like? Just one less per day at each level?

The original smiting spell progression for Silver Pyromancer was
1 -
2 -
3 - 1/day
4 -
5 - 3/day (blinding)

so the change gives an extra smite/day between 1st and 4th level, but ends up in the same place.

The Pyromancer gets two poor saves (fort, ref) and one good one (will); adding dvine grace into the mix does leave him with an excellent will save due to multiclassing effects