flaming sphere vs. invisibility

[RigaMortus2]

Your ally who was conjured by a spell you cast and has no choice about following your instructions because of that spell?

-Hyp.

Sure. In the most extreme example, I could see Gateing an ally to me who I have dominated via Dominate Person and I told to attack a foe while I was invis.

Or if a Paladin happened to be invis, and he uses the ability to Call his special mount and asks/orders the mount to attack.

The difference with Summon Monster is that (a) the monster just attacks on it's own unless you can (b) communicate with it and direct it to attack. Similiar to casting Summon Swarm next to an enemy (but not directly on an enemy) and the swarm happens to move into the enemy's square on it's own.

 

[frankthedm]

Oh, right... spell that opponents resist with a saving throw is defined as an attack, isn't it?

Then yeah, I'll switch my vote back to 'ends invisibility'

Spiritual Weapon, on the other hand, still seems analogous to Summon Monster to me, though Is it a 'spell that deals damage'? Or is it a spell that evokes a weapon, and the weapon deals damage, in the same way that Summon Monster conjures a monster, and the monster deals damage?

-Hyp.

Casting the spiritual weapon is safe.

Directing it start attacking someone ends invisibility. It is a spell effect / object that is under the caster's direct control. it makes no choices. the choice to attack is the casters.

Letting it nail someone round after round is safe so turn invisibile now. The weapon is on autopilot.

Redirecting it start attacking someone ends invisibility.

A summoned monster obeys you to the best of it's abilities, you could tell it eactly what abilities to use, but the creature is still taking the actions itself.

 

[Quidam]

it makes no choices. the choice to attack is the casters.

Which makes summon swarm a good choice for invisible casters-

Summon Swarm
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Brd 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One swarm of bats, rats, or spiders
Duration: Concentration + 2 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.

 

[Hypersmurf]

IMO the difference with Spiritual Weapon is that the caster makes an attack roll using his BAB - the key here being that it is his BAB and not the summoned creature's. It also uses the caster's Wisdom mod instead of Str Mod as a bonus.

The caster doesn't make an attack roll using his BAB; the weapon makes an attack roll using the caster's BAB.

Letting it nail someone round after round is safe so turn invisibile now. The weapon is on autopilot.

Redirecting it start attacking someone ends invisibility.

So:

Situation A:
I cast Summon Monster, and direct my celestial badger not to attack.
I cast Invisibility.
Now I direct my celestial badger to 'Attack that guy'.

Situation B:
I cast Spiritual Weapon.
I cast Invisibility.
Now I direct my Spiritual Weapon to 'Attack that guy'.

You feel that in Situation A, I remain invisible, but in Situation B, my invisibility is negated.

I don't understand the difference.

The monster must attack as I direct. The weapon must attack as I direct. The monster makes his own attack roll. The weapon makes its own attack roll. What's the difference?

-Hyp.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I give up. It's become clear to me that a great many people simply have no idea what the word "indirectly" means.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I give up. It's become clear to me that a great many people simply have no idea what the word "indirectly" means.

Well, I agree that the Flaming Sphere is not the caster causing harm directly. However, it is a spell that opponents resist with a saving throw, which fits the p131 definition of an attack.

-Hyp.

 

[frankthedm]

You feel that in Situation A, I remain invisible, but in Situation B, my invisibility is negated.

I don't understand the difference.

The monster must attack as I direct. The weapon must attack as I direct. The monster makes his own attack roll. The weapon makes its own attack roll. What's the difference?

-Hyp.

The monster is not you, and the actions it takes are because it wants/has to follow your commands. If It was invisible, that would break the creature's own invisibility when it attacks. Plus the commands can be given through a mundane medium of speech. If the caster operated the summon through complete mental control [ the level of a mental video game controller] and rather than the summon following commands to the best of its abilities, I’d say the summon would break the caster’s invisibility.

The spiritual weapon in an object that starts to attack at your mental command. That feels direct enough to me to break invisibility. Once it is on a victim a cleric can wash his hands of the weapons attacks until the time comes when he redirects it to another victim.

 

[Dracorat]

The monster certainly isn't you, but you still attacked it by placing a spell in place it had to make a save against.

Mundane items and environments don't follow the same rules regarding attacks, but magic is an attack on your part any time your spell harms a monster or causes them to make a save, for any reason, including them doing something dumb like jumping through a wall of fire.

 

[TYPO5478]

Well, I agree that the Flaming Sphere is not the caster causing harm directly. However, it is a spell that opponents resist with a saving throw, which fits the p131 definition of an attack.

Opponents don't resist the spell with a saving throw; they resist being touched by a rolling ball of fire with a saving throw, the same way they could jump out of the way of a trap. Reflex negates damage from flaming sphere, it doesn't reduce it, nor does it prevent the effect from actually occurring. As I asked my DM, what attacks can be completely negated by a reflex save?

Invisibility has very specific conditions about what types of spells remove its protection: "any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe". Flaming sphere doesn't meet the criteria for negation set by invisibility. Flaming sphere has no area, it has no target, and its effect is a 5-ft.-diameter sphere. So unless you consider that 5-ft.-diameter sphere to be your opponent, your invisibility should remain intact.

The sphere cannot target creatures (or anything else, for that matter). It simply moves where you direct it, whether there are creatures (either friends, foes or strangers) in the way or not. If there are creatures in the sphere's path (and they choose to stay there), they will get burned. Creatures not moving out of the way, or stepping in the way, no more constitutes an attack on your part than Randy Johnson's pitch constituted an attack on that bird.

If directing a summoned creature doesn't negate invisibility, why should directing a summoned (or evoked) ball of flame? If triggering a trap that sends a mundane or magical burning sphere toward an enemy doesn't negate invisibility, why should sending your own flaming ball? If this were a mundane ignited orb that an invisible caster were manipulating with telekinesis, would the same arguments apply?

The monster is not you, and the actions it takes are because it wants/has to follow your commands.

Neither is the flaming sphere you, but the moves it makes are because it has to follow your commands. Is your concern really over the difference between mental and verbal control? Would it really be any different if the invisible caster were shouting or even whispering to the ball of fire, "Go over there!"

magic is an attack on your part any time your spell harms a monster or causes them to make a save, for any reason, including them doing something dumb like jumping through a wall of fire.

So, if I used fabricate to create a masterwork longsword and then some idiot comes and lops his foot off with it, I just attacked him? With my fabricate spell??? Cite your source.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Opponents don't resist the spell with a saving throw; they resist being touched by a rolling ball of fire with a saving throw, the same way they could jump out of the way of a trap. Reflex negates damage from flaming sphere, it doesn't reduce it, nor does it prevent the effect from actually occurring. As I asked my DM, what attacks can be completely negated by a reflex save?

What does "Saving Throw: Reflex negates" mean?

The Saving Throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.

Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.

The type of saving throw the spell allows. How saving throws against the spell work. The spell has no effect on the subject.

Flaming Sphere is a spell that opponents resist with a saving throw.

Invisibility has very specific conditions about what types of spells remove its protection: "any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe".

PHB p171:

Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. For instance, invisibility is dispelled if you attack anyone or anything while under its effects. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents (such as disarm and bull rush) are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.

Invisibility is the example spell used to show where this definition applies. Another example might be Sanctuary. Unlike Sanctuary, Invisibility has further qualities that might define an action as an attack, but the p171 definition must also apply, since Invisibility is the example used.

So in addition to the p171 definition, Invisibility also considers any spell targeting a foe or an spell whose area or effect includes a foe. But the p171 definition - including "spells that opponents resist with saving throws" - must apply, and Flaming Sphere is a "spell that opponents resist with saving throws", since it has "Saving Throw: Reflex Negates", and this defines whether or not the spell has an effect on the subject.

-Hyp.