Flaming Weapon Stealth Errata?

[garyh]

Yeah, the fact that the other elemental weapons weren't changed makes this even worse.

Also aggravating is tha the two wizard fire at-wills stink. I was planning to take Winged Horde and Beguiling Strands... Scorching Burst is the worst area burst 1 at-will in the game these days.

 

[kaomera]

That is speculation... and bizarre speculation, at that. There is zero evidence that powers are in any way balanced with their keywords in mind. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

So you're assuming that keywords are just thrown on after the design process is otherwise fully complete, and no further effort is made to balance the power? Or are you assuming that WotC does not consider balance in any way when designing powers? Either one seems pretty bizarre to me... I'm speculating that WotC designs powers, including keywords etc., with at least an attempt made to ensure that the results are balanced. I'm further speculating that some form of playtesting takes place, and changes may be made if things don't work out as balanced as intended. And I don't really see where any part of that is an unreasonable assumption.

 

[Aegeri]

That is speculation... and bizarre speculation, at that. There is zero evidence that powers are in any way balanced with their keywords in mind. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

I agree, because it's pretty clear that unless you're a necromancer or have venom hand master (assassin feat) necrotic and poison are almost absolutely worthless damage types. Some damage types, like Radiant are amazingly well supported and are practically the best in the game.

So I would agree. There is no balance because the balance has been applied utterly willy nilly with no regard to its mechanical interactions in the game.

 

[Kinneus]

So they need to give literally every other implement-using PC in the game who wants to make a fire-themed character the shaft all because of the pyromancer?

Weak. Sauce.

It's all pretty moot, though, since the Weapon of Summer trick apparently works (until that receives errata too, I'm sure).

Twitter

 

[WalterKovacs]

Like I said... if this is "overpowered," why was Flaming Weapon changed, but Frost Weapons and "Frostcheese" - which have been around since day one - have not?

The biggest reason is probably because it's not just errata, it's new publishing which changes the earlier versions. Because they did say they were not doing as many rules updates, they are saving unprinted errata (the class compendium articles counting as "printing" in this regard) for when they do that big update (once per quarter I think they said)

So it's mostly the matter of ... they reprinted the flaming weapon, but they didn't reprint the frost weapon.

Or maybe it's only because of the pyromancer interaction. [Presumably it still works, but only for untyped damage powers ... there are some untyped damage (not many, but some) for wizards ... and a flaming weapon does have a secondary property.

[And I always thought that there was something wrong with the fact that weapon wielders got more benefit out of energy specific feats than implement users ... it seemed a bit unfair that the people who don't get a drawback for "specializing", since they can turn it off vs. resistant/immune monsters, get the most use of it. Again, not sure if it was intended, but the lack of using things like "weapon attack" and "implement attack" early on led to very powerful combos ... and later feats ended up including lots of riders like only applying in class, or say ... only a small number of powers being evocations. That's part of the problem with pyromancers ... none of the other schools can just bring other powers "into" the school... and it already had the biggest pool to pick from before including flaming weapons ... not to mention it's the only one that got keyword support in HoS.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Yeah, the fact that the other elemental weapons weren't changed makes this even worse.

Also aggravating is tha the two wizard fire at-wills stink. I was planning to take Winged Horde and Beguiling Strands... Scorching Burst is the worst area burst 1 at-will in the game these days.

It is agravating, but look at it from the other perspective.

Before the errata, a mage can basically do this:

Pick a school (enchantment not so much, but nethermancy, necromancy, evocation or illusion mostly have damage). You have pyromancy as your other school. You take nothing but powers from that other school, and use your flaming weapliment to convert all damage to fire. Voila, you get to use benefit from both apprentice school class features with every power. Name ANY other combination of schools that is possible for.

It's the equivalent of saying "it's aggravating that by taking necromancy as a school I have to take necromancy powers".

And the fact that fire powers are suboptimal choices ... well, keywords do matter. Fire doesn't get cool control features, because that's not thematically tied to fire ... fire is about damage mostly. (Also why, unlike necromacy, it gets to ignore vulnerability immediately, instead of waiting until 10 as a mastery feature).

The stealth errata is not the best way to do it, and it should probably be put to all weapons equally, but it did make pyromancy as a school TONS better than any other school (especially when you can always pick pyromancy as a secondary school, and master the main school while always benefiting from the pyromancy bonus to damage and busting through vulnerability ... not to mention being able to go with the 'normal' damage OR fire damage based on what the monster was vulnerable to).

 

[garyh]

Actually, I was planning a pyromancer/enchanter, so half the powers in my spellbook would be enchantment "you, attack your friend!" non-damage powers, and the rest would be damaging powers (native fire where good, other types when vastly superior than the fire powers at that level). I'm going this build since this the PC is for Living 4th Edition here on EN World (plug! see my sig), where from adventure to adventure party compilation changes, so going enchanter-controller or pyromancer-striker depending on party makeup is part of the plan.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

I agree completely with WalterKovacs' assessment that the kinds of effects that a power has, and the defence it targets, is correlated with its keyword/s. This correlation of effect, defence and keyword is not wholly complete across all powers; but there is a correlation nonetheless.

What we have seen since PHB1 is a massive expansion in the classes and the combat mechanics used by those classes, including related powers and feats. At the same time, WotC has endeavoured to make as many character builds as possible as viable in as many circumstances as possible. Hence, we have illogical things such as pyromancers that can burn fire elementals. Whether this is because of some deep-seated desire to appeal to the punters, or to ensure that organised play functions no matter what is brought to the table, or some other reason, it is, IMHO, the crux of the problem.

The problem should not exist in home games. Players should develop their character concepts in conjunction with the DM so that everyone's happy. If you want to bring a pyromancer into my Against-the-Primordials-themed campaign, I have to warn you at the start that about one quarter of the bad guys you're fighting will be effectively immune to your attacks. A fire attack does not harm a creature literally made of fire; my campaign, my rules, RAW be damned. Equally, if I as a player have this cool idea for a goth-themed dread necromancer, I'd better hope that my DM isn't running a Ravenloft campaign full of necrotic-resistant undead - unless I want to side with the bad guys, of course.

There is no balance between the keyword-applied powers. That's a given. To then suggest that your character concept has been nerfed because suddenly not every power that it might have had access to won't get all the funky benefits of your "one chosen" keyword sounds to me like... Talk to your DM. If he or she is OK with a pyromancer applying the fire keyword to a power like Hold Monster with (melted) cheese, your problem is solved. Calling foul over WotC's latest rule change... well, I have two young children, you get where I'm going.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[garyh]

Anyways, guess it's time to scrounge for untyped damage wizard spells (rare!) for the flaming staff or find close attacks (that aren't already fire, I have burning hands and fire shroud planned) and swap to a hellfire staff.

I'm gonna miss that stinking flaming cloud, though...

 

[garyh]

Whether this is because of some deep-seated desire to appeal to the punters, or to ensure that organised play functions no matter what is brought to the table, or some other reason, it is, IMHO, the crux of the problem.

I don't do Living Forgotten Realms, but I do Living 4th Edition here on EN World, like I mentioned. Since it's community run, we're not strictly held to WotC-ninja standards, and I could put "Keep flaming staff as it used to be" up for a vote. We go by official errata and current rules unless specifically voted otherwise, though. Still, whether Living FR, Living 4th, or a random home game, I don't think assuming the DM can and will hand-wave things is a good idea.