Forced Movement & verticals

[MarauderX]

I'd allow it.

By the logic of jumping and thunderwaving upward, a wizard could look to start hitting things that are 20' up on cliffs. Is the effect considered to be 3D, 15' up as well as 15' square?

 

[Staffan]

Unless the power's description states that it's 2-D, I'd say it works in 3-D. Icy Terrain, for example, would be kinda useless against flying foes.

 

[mostholy2]

As long as the squares are always farther or closer, it's good. If it makes sense for the situation, it's also good.

My issue with this statement is that there are conditions when working in 3-D that allow you to push farther or pull closer that don't make sense logically.

ie. Wizard on the ground thunderwaves flyer 1 up and 2 away from his position. If following the statement of pushing (away) strictly, the caster could push the creature to the ground and farther away from him, even though the source of attack (the wizard) is from the ground. To me this is illogical movement.

A similar case could be made for the pull effect.

Although as a general rule, it's easier to implement the pull closer/push farther rule, the DM still needs to be able to invalidate non-logical forced movements.

 

[James McMurray]

I can visualize ways it would work, such as an actual wave of thunder that crests and then crashes down. But as with almost all things 3-D in 4e, you'll have to find what's right for you.

 

[Milambus]

ie. Wizard on the ground thunderwaves flyer 1 up and 2 away from his position. If following the statement of pushing (away) strictly, the caster could push the creature to the ground and farther away from him, even though the source of attack (the wizard) is from the ground. To me this is illogical movement.

Why would the caster be able to push the creature towards the ground?

Since the movement has to be away from the caster, then the forced movement should push the flyer upwards 1 square for every 2 squares it is pushed horizontally.

 

[James McMurray]

If they're up 1 and over two, they're two squares away. If you push them down to ground level and over three, they're now 3 squares away.

 

[Milambus]

If they're up 1 and over two, they're two squares away. If you push them down to ground level and over three, they're now 3 squares away.

If they were one square west, and two north would you allow them to be pushed to the north-east?

 

[James McMurray]

The rules allow it, and I see no reason to house rule against it. Pushes and pulls don't care about direction, only distance. Usually the two are tied together, but not always.

 

[mostholy2]

Why would the caster be able to push the creature towards the ground?

Since the movement has to be away from the caster, then the forced movement should push the flyer upwards 1 square for every 2 squares it is pushed horizontally.

The problem is that according to 3-D distance rules (DMG, pg. 45), you COULD push the flyer down to the ground because an opponent that is 3 away and at ground level is further away than the creature at 2 away and 1 space up.

The caster on the ground shouldn't be able to push the creature, which is above him, towards the ground. Thunderwave may not be an appropriate effect for this example as some has rationalized a "wave" effect allowing the creature to be pushed down. You could perhaps instead substitute the example with a fighter standing on the ground using Tide of Iron to force a flyer that is one elevation up and 1 space away down to the ground and 2 spaces away from the fighter.

 

[James McMurray]

You could perhaps instead substitute the example with a fighter standing on the ground using Tide of Iron to force a flyer that is one elevation up and 1 space away down to the ground and 2 spaces away from the fighter.

As the flier dips low, the fighter jumps and drives his shield out with the full force of his shoulder. A well-timed slam of shield against wing forces the beast back and makes it lose elevation as it struggles to right itself.