D&D 5E ForgedAnvil D&D 5E Character Generator

[wilcoxon]

Good question, makes sense - anyone have any official rules reference for this? It's easy to implement and might make this default even if no official ruling. Thoughts?

I believe the official ruling (no citation though) is that a class does not count as a caster until they gain the Spellcasting class feature (eg 1st level for "pure" caster classes, 2nd level for rangers/paladins, and 3rd level for arcane tricksters or eldritch knights).

However, if you are mucking with the spell level calculations, could I ask that you please add an option to round up for caster levels when multi-classing? Paladins/Rangers increase in caster level on odd levels (not even) so level 3 is the equivalent of level 2 in a "pure" class (not level 4). Even more striking for rogue/fighter who increase at 3rd and the level after every 3 (eg 3, 4, 7, 10, etc) and not 3, 6, 9, etc. Yes, it is unofficial but it matches the existing spellcasting tables and nobody I've talked to has any idea why they did this as it makes no sense (other than that WotC seems to hate multi-classing) - there's absolutely no reason that if you are a Paladin 3 and then multi-class Cleric 1 that your spellcasting ability should go down (eg it stays exactly the same officially even though you gained caster class levels).

 

[Dannyboy7702]

I believe the official ruling (no citation though) is that a class does not count as a caster until they gain the Spellcasting class feature (eg 1st level for "pure" caster classes, 2nd level for rangers/paladins, and 3rd level for arcane tricksters or eldritch knights).

However, if you are mucking with the spell level calculations, could I ask that you please add an option to round up for caster levels when multi-classing? Paladins/Rangers increase in caster level on odd levels (not even) so level 3 is the equivalent of level 2 in a "pure" class (not level 4). Even more striking for rogue/fighter who increase at 3rd and the level after every 3 (eg 3, 4, 7, 10, etc) and not 3, 6, 9, etc. Yes, it is unofficial but it matches the existing spellcasting tables and nobody I've talked to has any idea why they did this as it makes no sense (other than that WotC seems to hate multi-classing) - there's absolutely no reason that if you are a Paladin 3 and then multi-class Cleric 1 that your spellcasting ability should go down (eg it stays exactly the same officially even though you gained caster class levels).

Page 164 of the PHB explains the rules for characters that multiclass as multiple spellcasters. There is a "Multiclass Spellcaster: Spell Slots Per Spell Level" table on page 165. This charts tells how many spell slots are available per spell level at each character level, for those that have multiclassed as multiple spellcasters.

The subsection Spell Slots states....

"You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table."

This section should be able to answer all of your questions about mutliclassing as multiple spellcasters.

 

[Dannyboy7702]

Good question, makes sense - anyone have any official rules reference for this? It's easy to implement and might make this default even if no official ruling. Thoughts?

Page 164 and 165 of the PHB explains spellcasting for characters that multiclass multiple spellcasters.

 

[Erik Ker]

Fighting style calculations

Making a Fighter. If I select fighting styleefense. My AC increases by 1 as expected.

However, if I select fighting style: Dueling. No change in my damage stats.
i.e. My longsword does 1d8 +2 (due to STR 14) damage. Now I select Dueling for the fighting style, and my longsword still does 1d8 +2 damage. The improved damage for Dueling does not appear to be reflected anywhere on the character sheets. Am I missing something?

 

[wilcoxon]

Page 164 of the PHB explains the rules for characters that multiclass as multiple spellcasters. There is a "Multiclass Spellcaster: Spell Slots Per Spell Level" table on page 165. This charts tells how many spell slots are available per spell level at each character level, for those that have multiclassed as multiple spellcasters.

The subsection Spell Slots states....

"You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table."

This section should be able to answer all of your questions about mutliclassing as multiple spellcasters.

The original question was around what happens if you have non-pure caster levels and multiclass into another non-pure caster class. The rules are not completely explicit on this.

I fully understand the official spell slot progression for multi-classing. However, it makes no sense (it's just another way to penalize multi-class characters). As I said, my suggestion was to add an option for an unofficial calculation option that rounds up (rather than down). It is not official and not AL-legal but, in my experience, is used in a lot of home games.

 

[Dannyboy7702]

The original question was around what happens if you have non-pure caster levels and multiclass into another non-pure caster class. The rules are not completely explicit on this.

I fully understand the official spell slot progression for multi-classing. However, it makes no sense (it's just another way to penalize multi-class characters). As I said, my suggestion was to add an option for an unofficial calculation option that rounds up (rather than down). It is not official and not AL-legal but, in my experience, is used in a lot of home games.

I don't think it penalizes multi-class characters, I believe it is designed to give balance to multi-class characters. If something wasn't put into place then there is a real possibility of a multi-class character becoming to powerful and causing the game to become imbalanced.

The rules are clear about non-pure caster levels and multi-classing. These classes have other skills and abilities that balances out their limited spellcasting ability.

In the end, the rules in PHB and DMG are not set in stone. A DM can make changes to however they see fit.

 

[wilcoxon]

The rules are clear about non-pure caster levels and multi-classing. These classes have other skills and abilities that balances out their limited spellcasting ability.

Really? If you have 4 levels of Arcane Trickster and take 1 level of Ranger, what exactly happens? Do you continue just using the Arcane Trickster spell table or do you switch to the multi-class spell table (and lose casting ability)? To me at least, the PHB is unclear on this. I'm pretty sure the intent was to only switch to the multi-class spell table once a class/sub-class grants Spellcasting but it isn't explicit.

I don't think it penalizes multi-class characters, I believe it is designed to give balance to multi-class characters. If something wasn't put into place then there is a real possibility of a multi-class character becoming to powerful and causing the game to become imbalanced.

How is it NOT a penalty? The spell tables for non-pure casters round up but the multi-class rules say to round down. Because of this, it is possible to (possibly) lose spell-casting ability when multi-classing or at least stay stagnant when you should be gaining. I'm not saying use the individual class spell tables (as that would be broken) but I would at least expect the multi-class spell table to match the underlying class spell tables (and they do if you round UP but not if you follow the rules (and round down)).

 

[Conandar]

Making a Fighter. If I select fighting styleefense. My AC increases by 1 as expected.

However, if I select fighting style: Dueling. No change in my damage stats.
i.e. My longsword does 1d8 +2 (due to STR 14) damage. Now I select Dueling for the fighting style, and my longsword still does 1d8 +2 damage. The improved damage for Dueling does not appear to be reflected anywhere on the character sheets. Am I missing something?

In the weapons sections of the start page you will need to need to select which weapons you will be using with the Dueling fighting style.

 

[Conandar]

Really? If you have 4 levels of Arcane Trickster and take 1 level of Ranger, what exactly happens? Do you continue just using the Arcane Trickster spell table or do you switch to the multi-class spell table (and lose casting ability)? To me at least, the PHB is unclear on this. I'm pretty sure the intent was to only switch to the multi-class spell table once a class/sub-class grants Spellcasting but it isn't explicit.

How is it NOT a penalty? The spell tables for non-pure casters round up but the multi-class rules say to round down. Because of this, it is possible to (possibly) lose spell-casting ability when multi-classing or at least stay stagnant when you should be gaining. I'm not saying use the individual class spell tables (as that would be broken) but I would at least expect the multi-class spell table to match the underlying class spell tables (and they do if you round UP but not if you follow the rules (and round down)).

I suggest you take this to a WotC D&D designer as it will never be settled here to anybodies satisfaction. I personally suspect that they chose rounding down instead of rounding up for balance reasons. Besides, there are always trade-offs when multi-classing.

 

[brooksgbanks]

I suggest you take this to a WotC D&D designer as it will never be settled here to anybodies satisfaction. I personally suspect that they chose rounding down instead of rounding up for balance reasons. Besides, there are always trade-offs when multi-classing.

If that were true (trade-offs for multi-classing), then it would force you to do this regardless of whether or not the 2nd/3rd/Nth class you took was a spell-casting class. A 3rd Level Ranger PC shouldn't be less of a spell-caster than a 3rd level Ranger/ 1st Level Paladin, since a 3rd level Ranger PC isn't less of a spell-caster than a 3rd Level Ranger/ 1st Level Fighter.

Here's an example straight from the book:
Ranger 2 gets 2 spell slots of 1st Level. Easy Peasy.
Ranger 2 / Thief 1 (Note you can't have taken Arcane Trickster yet, since that's at 3rd level) gets 2 Spell slots of 1st Level. Easy Peasy.
Ranger 3 gets 3 spell slots of 1st Level. Easy Peasy.
Ranger 3/ Thief 1 (Note you can't have taken Arcane Trickster yet, since that's at 3rd level) gets 3 Spell slots of 1st Level. Easy Peasy.
Ranger 3/ Paladin 1 (Note, the "rules" say round down, so .5 paladin counts as 0 and 1.5 ranger counts as 1) gets 2 Spell slots of 1st Level.

So, if you multi-class to Thief/Fighter/Monk (and don't get to 3rd level or choose not to take the Archetype that offers spell-casting), you maintain standard Ranger progression, but if you choose Paladin, you actually lose spells every time you take an odd level of either.

This does not happen if you start as a straight spellcaster class and then multi-class to Ranger or Paladin, but will happen again if you multi-class to both Ranger and Paladin at odd levels of each.

What I believe the text was intended to state (and what could actually be interpreted from the verbiage as written) is that you take half of your (Paladin + Ranger) levels round down and a third of your (Figher-EldritchKnight + Thief-ArcaneTrickster) levels round down. That would achieve the result of never having you actually lose any spell slots you had already achieved while not allowing you to become overly powerful vs. base class only by giving you more spell slots than a full caster of your same level.

If you were to take RoundDown(.5*(Paladin + Ranger)), then Ranger 3/ Paladin 1 would still have 3 spell slots of 1st Level (which is exactly what you would have as Ranger 3/ Fighter 1, or just Ranger 3, or Ranger 2/ Paladin 2 which is what happens currently under the character sheet).