D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[Hussar]

But if he isn't actually going to do anything about it, what's the point? Why play against the grain and the leave it in the background.

Note this is a long way from setting up escape routes through eleven planar portals or trying to tear the Wall down. Which is more what was in my mind in this discussion.

 

[MG.0]

But if he isn't actually going to do anything about it, what's the point? Why play against the grain and the leave it in the background.

Note this is a long way from setting up escape routes through eleven planar portals or trying to tear the Wall down. Which is more what was in my mind in this discussion.

Notice I said he was doing something about it...just more subtly, as befits someone hopelessly outnumbered. He's presumably not stupid and realizes how everyone around him feels about heretics. Maybe in the end he accomplishes nothing, or perhaps he manages to secure an escape from the wall for himself, or perhaps he brings the whole thing down and revolutionizes religion in the Realms. Who knows?

In I'm a Banana's example, that was an entire campain and presumably a whole party with the same idea. I don't see the problem with that as they would be working together.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Notice I said he was doing something about it...just more subtly, as befits someone hopelessly outnumbered. He's presumably not stupid and realizes how everyone around him feels about heretics. Maybe in the end he accomplishes nothing, or perhaps he manages to secure an escape from the wall for himself, or perhaps he brings the whole thing down and revolutionizes religion in the Realms. Who knows?

In I'm a Banana's example, that was an entire campain and presumably a whole party with the same idea. I don't see the problem with that as they would be working together.

Well he has not set it up yet. He is also going to go out of his way to portray everything as out of character as he can so I don't think it will apply. Along with making a big deal out of something that is not a big deal.

The only gods who really treat their faith like a protection racket are ones like Talos, Umberlee and Bashaba. "Talos' don't bring down a hurricane on my farm, Umberlee don't flip my boat over, Bashaba don't make my investment turn out bad."

With a guy like Tyr you say "Tyr let the real murderer is found." or "Illmater ease this poor dog's (actual dog) suffering."

 

[Hussar]

Oh sure. I'd agree with that. If the group is bought into the idea then no worries.

I'm not a huge fan, to be honest of the other idea though. If the PC is being that subtle it's likely that it isn't coming up at the table. If it was then it would possibly be a problem. But if it's that far in the background it isn't imo adding much to the game. It's basically the one player and the DM. I'd prefer that things like this involved the group instead. I'm not a fan of "secret goals" for PCs because it gives little or nothing for the other players to work with.

 

[Saidoro]

The simplest answer for what separates a god from a powerful wizard is that gods get to determine what happens to your soul after you die. Wizards can't do that.

This is incorrect. The spells you need, in order, are plane shift, scrying, teleport and then another plane shift. In 3.5, a 13th level wizard can do it, if not exactly en masse.

A 17th level wizard can do it for whole bunches of people at once with gate.

 

[Hussar]

This is incorrect. The spells you need, in order, are plane shift, scrying, teleport and then another plane shift. In 3.5, a 13th level wizard can do it, if not exactly en masse.

A 17th level wizard can do it for whole bunches of people at once with gate.

Gate would only transport living creatures. Can you Gate the dead? And, would the dead stay where you took them? Wouldn't they just head back to the Fugue plane?

It's not like you stay on whatever plane you die on. If I travel to plane X, and die, I still go to the Fugue plane. (Assuming I'm a FR denizen) why would a Gated soul simply not gravitate back to the Fugue plane regardless of where you summon it?

Plopping a soul down in some aligned plane is not determining its final dispensation. Otherwise no souls would ever go to Hell. If you could save damned souls this way wouldn't every good aligned faith be doing it? Heck, wouldn't every demon not be conga lining souls to the buffet table if this worked?

 

[MG.0]

Can you Gate the dead?

Dunno. It's probably like herding cats*.

I don't think it would work, as if it did you could just travel to an appropriate outer plane to rescue dead souls and bring them back with you.





* Actually, anyone who says herding cats is difficult has never run past a group of cats dragging a long string. Cats are like strings - easier to pull than push.

 

[Saidoro]

Gate would only transport living creatures.

Why? A dead person's soul is seriously just a creature in d&d, it's got stats and everything. You aren't looking at some weird metaphysical thing, it follows the rules like everything else.

It's not like you stay on whatever plane you die on. If I travel to plane X, and die, I still go to the Fugue plane. (Assuming I'm a FR denizen) why would a Gated soul simply not gravitate back to the Fugue plane regardless of where you summon it?

Plopping a soul down in some aligned plane is not determining its final dispensation. Otherwise no souls would ever go to Hell. If you could save damned souls this way wouldn't every good aligned faith be doing it? Heck, wouldn't every demon not be conga lining souls to the buffet table if this worked?

I'm pretty sure that that's exactly what demons are doing. They've got this whole thing about tearing souls out of the wall going on which has been discussed in this very thread. Oh, and there's the devils trying to get people to sell their souls while waiting for Kelemvor to get around to them of course. Frankly, the fact that there aren't good-aligned entities trying to do the same here and there is something of a flaw of the setting. There's no real reason to suspect that the plane shift to the fugue plane is more than a one time thing. (And there really isn't any good argument for why members of good aligned faiths would be saving people from Lolth that doesn't also argue that they should be saving people from the wall. You may feel free to argue either way on that.)

 

[Hussar]

But if I plane shift a soul, it's just a soul. It doesn't have a body and it can't interact with anything. It's not like you get a new body when you die before you head off to whatever afterlife you are going to.

Souls on the fugue plane are exactly that -souls. No body. The only way you get out of the Fugue plane if you enter as a soul is going on to an afterlife, getting stuck in the Wall, selling yourself to a devil and being transformed into a larva or in the intestinal tract of a demon.

There really is no other way out.

Otherwise Raise Dead becomes murder. You kill off the extra planar version of yourself so you can bring that soul back to the Prime.

Why would a soul shifted to another plane suddenly gain a body? That's what you need a god for.

 

[Mecheon]

Pff, needing gods for bodies

This is why we made golems. Don't need no gods, just shove it in our artificially created husk. Accidentally reenact Frankenstein, sure, but bypass the whole 'needing a god' thing. Just find the right vessel.