Forked from "An Epiphany" thread: Is World Building "Necessary"?

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Mallus

Legend
To what degree is world-building needed to run a good/enjoyable campaign?
World-building is a requirement for me when I DM.

How does world-building support depth and internal consistency?
How does cooking support flavor and nutritional value? Depth and internal consistency are characteristics of the built world. What are you asking here?

Can these qualities be achieved without a lot of world-building?
Certainly. So long as the campaign's present action is complex and consistent. Hundreds of years of history are not required to set a dramatic story in motion. Sometimes all it takes is someone coveting another person's spouse/stuff/position.

What qualities does a campaign more likely have with or without a lot of world-building?
Campaign's that feature a detailed world are more suited for exploration, and there's usually a tacit agreement that part of the reward for playing is informational. The players enjoy finding out more about the fictional space.

What are the potential drawbacks to a lot of world-building and can it be excessive?
I think we all know it can be excessive. :)

The biggest drawbacks are usually tedium (because the players simply aren't as interested in all the details the DM shares) and protectiveness (the DM is reluctant to let PC actions disturb their prized creation).

The second is why I gleefully refer to world-building as wankery, or worse, even though I'm an inveterate setting designer. It helps keep me in the proper frame of mind...
 

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Hussar

Legend
What if your players figure out what they want to do in the setting you have created and invent their own adventures though? I mean isn't this just as valid, or even moreso, a way to create satisfying play for both parties involved?

I'm not saying that you must lockstep the players into your single railroaded plot. Heck, that's just as easy to do with a well developed world. See the Time of Troubles. See the Dragonlance modules. Both highly developed worlds with lockstep railroad plots. Having an overarching story does not equal railroading.

Take Savage Tide for example. If the players choose to completely ignore the plot (the Savage Tide is coming), they can certainly do so. But, then the world will be destroyed.

A lot of this is solved by having your players buy into the campaign in the first place. If they want a very open ended campaign, they should tell you so at the outset and you can plan accordingly. Or, if you are basing the campaign on their backstories, then you obviously don't need a larger over arching story line.

But, you still don't need a lot of world building either.

I disagree here. IMO, a well crafted setting by the nature of being well-crafted allows PC's to create their own stories. It is simply a vibrant backdrop for the goals and aspirations the PC's have and will pursue.

Creating a "story" however assumes you know exactly what your PC's want to do... and if they don't want to do it, your setting (since it's built around that particular story) is less likely to be accommodating to their goals on the fly.

Again, you are connecting "story" with railroading. That's simply not true. Having events in your campaign world that unfold independent of the players is story or plot. It is not railroading though.

See, and a well crafted setting can help as an inspiration for the PC's, I'll agree with that. However, it can also seriously impair creativity if handled badly - you cannot be X because page Y of setting book Z contradicts you.

There is also the issue that you wind up with a "tour des Realms" sort of campaign, where there really isn't much of a story, the DM just wants to show off his work of art and leads the players by the nose from point to point to point, not because the story would be better for it, but because he doesn't want to waste his hard work.

Not that this will automatically happen, just that this very much can be a pitfall of heavy worldbuilding DM's.

This style also assumes that the story you create will be a good (in relationship to what the PC's want) story, but what if it isn't? Since the setting is built around this particular story, instead of being an interesting setting ina nad of itself, the game's fun is based solely on whether your idea for a story and it's implementation are enjoyable to all at the table. Now if one has a setting constructed not to suit a story but as a setting, well then again the PC's can, if they desire, create a more suitable story, by exploring those aspects which intrigue or interest them.

Again, this assumes a couple of points.

One, you've assumed that the DM is working completely separate from the players and is not taking into account anything they want. That the DM comes to the table with an entire campaign and says, "Who wants to play". You can do that, but, you don't have to. A DM could also base his entire campaign on what the players hand him and still not do much or anything in the way of world building. The players could drop hooks and plots in their backgrounds and the DM can build his campaign around that. This does not require world building.

Second, say that the DM does come with a complete campaign to the table. This is a table issue. The players have to buy into that campaign beforehand. If I come in with Savage Tide and the players aren't interested in that, then I would be a very poor DM forcing them to play it. For the same reason that if I come in with a Forgotten Realms campaign and no one wants to play in FR, then I would still be a poor DM for doing that.

World building or lack thereof isn't really an issue here.

I think your basic point is highly dependent on the players and DM. IME, my players use to need a "story" handed to them, but after some awkwardness and frank discussion I realized they were becoming use to this mode of play and I really wanted to see the type of "story" they would craft given free reign with their characters... and so I started designing a world, giving them about 2 pages on it... and from there they would design a character who fits in that world. The funny thing is I realized that some of my players had stories they wanted to explore from the minute they created a character and they could more easily direct the game to accomodate that in this manner, while those who didn't were more than happy to tag along, kill some things and play a part in the other's stories. YMMV of course.

My question is, did the players who had stories they wanted to explore the minute they created a character have stories in mind that were expressly tied to your setting? Or were they more concerned with specific themes or tropes? "My wife was kidnapped by slavers" for example isn't tied to any specific setting and can be done in pretty much any setting. "I want to explore unknown areas" can be done with a random encounter chart and a map.

IME there are extremely few themes or concepts that cannot be ported into any setting from any other setting. Thus, they are pretty much independent of setting.

Yes, obviously, you have to do some setting building in any campaign. I know that and would never try to run a "Waiting for Godot" style campaign. But, by and large, you can go beyond the specifics and look at the themes that the players want to explore and build your campaign from there.

All without having to spend several hours, as GregK wants us to do, detailing a page of information for every single culture before you even start the game. While that doesn't sound like much, that could easily be ten, twenty pages of information you have to create even before you sit down to write your first adventure.

To me, that's about nineteen pages too much work.
 

Imaro

Legend
I'm not saying that you must lockstep the players into your single railroaded plot. Heck, that's just as easy to do with a well developed world. See the Time of Troubles. See the Dragonlance modules. Both highly developed worlds with lockstep railroad plots. Having an overarching story does not equal railroading.



Your right, and yet every time you argue against worldbuilding you take it to the negative extreme to prove your point. Worldbuilding is bad because a DM could be pre-occupied with the wrong details, or become too attached to his setting... yet neither of these is a necessary state for good worldbuilding.



Take Savage Tide for example. If the players choose to completely ignore the plot (the Savage Tide is coming), they can certainly do so. But, then the world will be destroyed.



Uhmm...ok, I guess they have a choice.


A lot of this is solved by having your players buy into the campaign in the first place. If they want a very open ended campaign, they should tell you so at the outset and you can plan accordingly. Or, if you are basing the campaign on their backstories, then you obviously don't need a larger over arching story line. But, you still don't need a lot of world building either.


I agree with your first paragraph, buy in is paramount and can shape what method works best for a DM... as far as the second paragraph... And you also don't need to construct your world around "story" either. It's a preference, and while one may work better for you it doesn't in any way make your preference the "right" way to construct a campaign.



Again, you are connecting "story" with railroading. That's simply not true. Having events in your campaign world that unfold independent of the players is story or plot. It is not railroading though.


Only because, as I said before many of your points on worldbuilding being a waste or unimportant are based around bad worldbuilding as opposed to the neutral act of worldbuilding...



See, and a well crafted setting can help as an inspiration for the PC's, I'll agree with that. However, it can also seriously impair creativity if handled badly - you cannot be X because page Y of setting book Z contradicts you.


See...like the above..."if handled badly". Though I could turn around and say no, you can't play an ewok in my Ravenloft game because it isn't being creative within the chosen genre we are playing in... it's being disruptive and more than a bit silly.


There is also the issue that you wind up with a "tour des Realms" sort of campaign, where there really isn't much of a story, the DM just wants to show off his work of art and leads the players by the nose from point to point to point, not because the story would be better for it, but because he doesn't want to waste his hard work. Not that this will automatically happen, just that this very much can be a pitfall of heavy worldbuilding DM's.



And there are many pitfalls in constructing a "story" based game, but I don't think you can compare the worst that could happen with one method, to the best result of another method.


Again, this assumes a couple of points. One, you've assumed that the DM is working completely separate from the players and is not taking into account anything they want. That the DM comes to the table with an entire campaign and says, "Who wants to play". You can do that, but, you don't have to. A DM could also base his entire campaign on what the players hand him and still not do much or anything in the way of world building. The players could drop hooks and plots in their backgrounds and the DM can build his campaign around that. This does not require world building.



Why do you keep using the word "required"... neither worldbuilding or "story"-building is required. Theyr are prefered methods to shape one's game to it's desired form. I can lay five dungeon tiles on a table and flip to a random page in the Monster Manual for what's in each room. The PC's fight them, we're playing D&D but it has neither a world or story.



Second, say that the DM does come with a complete campaign to the table. This is a table issue. The players have to buy into that campaign beforehand. If I come in with Savage Tide and the players aren't interested in that, then I would be a very poor DM forcing them to play it. For the same reason that if I come in with a Forgotten Realms campaign and no one wants to play in FR, then I would still be a poor DM for doing that. World building or lack thereof isn't really an issue here.


Now you're starting to get my point. The only way Worldbuilding or "Story"-building becomes an "issue" is when done badly or when forced upon someone as the "better" style.


My question is, did the players who had stories they wanted to explore the minute they created a character have stories in mind that were expressly tied to your setting? Or were they more concerned with specific themes or tropes? "My wife was kidnapped by slavers" for example isn't tied to any specific setting and can be done in pretty much any setting. "I want to explore unknown areas" can be done with a random encounter chart and a map. IME there are extremely few themes or concepts that cannot be ported into any setting from any other setting. Thus, they are pretty much independent of setting.


First, the themes my PC's want to explore are often alot more involved, than "explore the next dungeon". They might explore something like "Does one become a monster in hunting monsters?"... now I'm sorry I could run this game in the Forgotten Realms, but I think it would work better and both I and my players would get more enjoyment from exploring this in Ravenloft, it's a setting constructed to facilitate something like this. Have you considered mood, genre, etc.? I mean the types of stories one can more easily tell in Dark Sun are different from the type one would more easily tell in Forgotten Realms. You see my group and I really do believe that what world you choose to play in does affect the enjoyability for us.



Yes, obviously, you have to do some setting building in any campaign. I know that and would never try to run a "Waiting for Godot" style campaign. But, by and large, you can go beyond the specifics and look at the themes that the players want to explore and build your campaign from there. All without having to spend several hours, as GregK wants us to do, detailing a page of information for every single culture before you even start the game. While that doesn't sound like much, that could easily be ten, twenty pages of information you have to create even before you sit down to write your first adventure. To me, that's about nineteen pages too much work.


Hyperbole is great, especially when it is used to prove your point huh? I'm sorry when did the world-building police put down the laws for how many pages must be composed on certain things?
 

Ariosto

First Post
Greg K actually wrote, "A brief outline or a page or less of per culture should suffice." Note the clause or less. Also, "What I think is helpful ... are things that create the sense of a coherent setting and inform players how things will differ from RAW." Helpful is far from "required". He then offered examples. His basis was clearly stated as elements "that will interest me in participating." Hussar's interests may be different.
 

Hussar

Legend
I don't remember this. My recollection of past DMGs (especially 1st edition) was that the advice was to start with a village where the dungeon was located, and expand outward as needed. If I think back through other notes in the DMG, in no particular order, there was stuff on versimilitude with treasure ("it's not just a pile of coins" advice), preparing reactions for organized foes, reasons why PC rulers might have a hard time forcing serfdom on the locals (I remember something about a Conan-type fighter leading the rebellion) and so on. Every one of those elements were advice on how to build a reaction to a PC action, which AFAICT is not the world-building you're talking about.

The 3E DMG had notes on demographics, but they were very sketchy and seemed geared towards "what can a PC buy in this place". There were some notes on how much a bushel of wheat costs and stuff like that. But otherwise, I don't recognize your criticism of DMGs as having lots of world building information. Mainly because I can't recall any. And if I could I would be very curious about how they tackled the "medieval-historical vs. fantasy" choices and other such things. But I can't.

So are you sure it was in the DMGs?

Yup. Went back and looked at the Campaigns section (Chapter 5 of the 3e DMG, page 141) and read the first page. I shall quote:

3.0 DMG Page 141 said:
... A campaign first requires a world. You have two options when it comes to making a world for your campaign:

Use a published setting...

Create your own world: For more information on how to do this, see Chapter 6:World Building.

Pretty cut and dried if you ask me. Are you honestly going to tell me that the common wisdom of campaign creation ISN'T world building first? That the Dungeon Craft articles were totally off base and out of touch?
 

Hussar

Legend
Imaro said:
Only because, as I said before many of your points on worldbuilding being a waste or unimportant are based around bad worldbuilding as opposed to the neutral act of worldbuilding...

To me, there is no neutral act of world building. To me, world building is going above and beyond what is required by the game or the story. If you need a town for the action to occur in, then by all means, have a town. However, if there is no need for, say, a thieves guild in the town, because the players have no particular reason to interact with that thieves guild (they aren't interested in that story) then spending time detailing out the heirarchy of that thieve's guild is a complete waste of time.

It is, OTOH, completely consistent with world building.

First, the themes my PC's want to explore are often alot more involved, than "explore the next dungeon". They might explore something like "Does one become a monster in hunting monsters?"... now I'm sorry I could run this game in the Forgotten Realms, but I think it would work better and both I and my players would get more enjoyment from exploring this in Ravenloft, it's a setting constructed to facilitate something like this. Have you considered mood, genre, etc.? I mean the types of stories one can more easily tell in Dark Sun are different from the type one would more easily tell in Forgotten Realms. You see my group and I really do believe that what world you choose to play in does affect the enjoyability for us.

And that's perfectly fine. We agree with that. Setting most certainly can be used to set mood, theme and tone. That's precisely what it IS used for.

So, let's use your example. You're doing a sort of narrative game where you want to explore the theme of "do we become monsters if we hunt monsters". Ok, that's cool. Now, do you need Lord Soth's realm in that setting to do that? Do you need 98% of the Ravenloft backstory to deal with that? Nope, you don't. You can strip out almost the entirety of that setting as it will have zero impact on your game.

So, as a DM, should I then create an ENTIRE Ravenloft setting before I play this theme game? Because, as a world builder, that's what you are advocating. That I have to detail out an entire setting, independent of my campaign, before I begin play.

In my mind, you start with that theme, "do we become monsters", set up a series of locations/adventures linked by that theme, each location having a particular mood and feel, and tie the entire package back to the PC's. Everything in the world outside of what the PC's interact with, and anything that isn't linked to that theme, I couldn't be bothered dealing with.

And that's the difference between setting building and world building. Setting is by definition tied to plot. World building is, by definition, separate from plot.
 

Ariosto

First Post
What is with people redefining terms as straw men to knock down?

Why not just talk about how you go about setting up a game?
 

Imaro

Legend
To me, there is no neutral act of world building. To me, world building is going above and beyond what is required by the game or the story. If you need a town for the action to occur in, then by all means, have a town. However, if there is no need for, say, a thieves guild in the town, because the players have no particular reason to interact with that thieves guild (they aren't interested in that story) then spending time detailing out the heirarchy of that thieve's guild is a complete waste of time.

It is, OTOH, completely consistent with world building.

So you determine what is "above and beyond" what is "required" by the game... and here I thought each persons game was a unique thing, if not in all ways at least in some. How do you know your PC's won't decide that a Thieve's Guild is the perfect place to get some info from? Or to get a loan for better equipment? Or even to take over? (NOTE: My Pc's have decided to do each of these things at one time or another and didn't necessarily tell me before game that was their plan.) That's the problem with pre-determining what is necessary or required as a general thing. In my game the Thieve's Guild isn't a story it is a situation which can and might be interacted with in any way the PC's might decide to. It actually empowers their creativity by offering another option to interact with in the game.

And that's perfectly fine. We agree with that. Setting most certainly can be used to set mood, theme and tone. That's precisely what it IS used for.

So, let's use your example. You're doing a sort of narrative game where you want to explore the theme of "do we become monsters if we hunt monsters". Ok, that's cool. Now, do you need Lord Soth's realm in that setting to do that? Do you need 98% of the Ravenloft backstory to deal with that? Nope, you don't. You can strip out almost the entirety of that setting as it will have zero impact on your game.

So, as a DM, should I then create an ENTIRE Ravenloft setting before I play this theme game? Because, as a world builder, that's what you are advocating. That I have to detail out an entire setting, independent of my campaign, before I begin play.

I would... for the simple fact that I would want any aspect of this theme (not just the aspects I think of when designing the story to take them through) could be explored if any of my players wanted to. There's no way I can know how this theme will necessarily be approached by my players or exactly what aspects interest them, thus yes it is better to have a exstensive world that is vast enough for them to go in directions I may have not considered. For us it produces better gameplay.

In my mind, you start with that theme, "do we become monsters", set up a series of locations/adventures linked by that theme, each location having a particular mood and feel, and tie the entire package back to the PC's. Everything in the world outside of what the PC's interact with, and anything that isn't linked to that theme, I couldn't be bothered dealing with.

And that's the difference between setting building and world building. Setting is by definition tied to plot. World building is, by definition, separate from plot.

Wow, it must be great to know how, when and where each PC wants to explore a particular theme... actually, I take that back... I like for the PC's to surprise me and I find the bigger the canvas for them to paint on, the more likelly they are to do something unexpected, interesting and exciting. I love how you claim limiting their race may stifle creativity... but ignoring everything you feel is " outside of what the PC's interact with, and anything that isn't linked to that theme" isn't. If you can determine all the possible ways someone could approach and explore a theme... well then why are you in the least bit intersted in exploring it?

On a side note, why limit yourself to this theme if, through interacting with the world the PC's realize they want togo in another direction and you all find it interesting, why not go for it? So in Ravenloft your players instead decide to explore the themes of faith in light of overpowering evil... but you just wasted all that work constructing an entire world around the "story" for another theme. Is that wasted effort?
 


Barastrondo

First Post
To my mind, there are two ways in which world-building can be "necessary." First off, there's the idea that world-building is something necessary for the players. If you have the explorer type of player, who wants to find out the lore of the campaign, for instance. This is kind of like the person who reads up on all the game fiction and supplements for a published setting, only in this case they tend to get more of a kick out of discovering this stuff in-game or talking about the world with the GM. Players like this are happy to find out that there's detail to the world. They love it when you give them maps. They like descriptions of local cuisine and interesting cultural traditions. I tend to wind up with at least one or two in every gaming group.

The second way is that world-building can be "necessary" for the GM. It's a reward for running the game, in a way. Some GMs love the activity. They tend to be the same sort of lore-enjoying player, only in this case it's a certain enticement to work on the game. It's a process of inspiration, much like for other GMs watching a favorite sword-and-sandals movie or cranking up the Poledouris would be.

As always, it depends on the individuals. But world-building might be key to why some people love a fantasy RPG better than any other hobby.
 

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