Forked Thread: Preview: The Shaman, the first broken class.

[Herschel]

The Shaman was my last hope. Now I find that everything is broken. All these trheads have ruined any chance I had at fun without broken stuff. I guess it's back to Candyland and Checkers.

 

[jgsugden]

The Shaman was my last hope. Now I find that everything is broken. All these trheads have ruined any chance I had at fun without broken stuff. I guess it's back to Candyland and Checkers.

I stopped playing those games when I learned how broken the red pieces were... WAY too visible compared to the other pieces.

For me, the Shaman's biggest issue will be constantly counting distances:

W W W W W W W W W W W W
W W W W W W W W W W W 1
W W W W W W W W W W . .
W W W W W W W W W . . W
W W W W W W W W . . W W
W W W W W W W . . W W W 
W W W W W W . . W W W W
W W W W W . . W W W W W
W W W W . . W W W W W W
W W W . . W W W W W W W
W W . . W W W W W W W W
W . . W W W W W W W W W
2 . W W W W W W W W W W

What is the distance between 1 and 2, where W is wall and . is open space?

What is the distance here?

W W W W W W W W W W W W W W W W
W . . . W . . . W . . . W . . .
1 . W . . . W . . . W . . . W 2
W . . . W . . . W . . . W . . .
W W W W W W W W W W W W W W W W

Counting around corners can get ugly for the Spirit Shaman. It isn't necessarily hard, but it can slow things down a bit.

I'll be curious how the spirit's detailed attack rules work. You treat the spirit companion's square as the origin square for spirit attacks - but some of the rules don't focus on origen squares - they focus on you. For example, concealment rules focus on whether you can see a creature.
I see nothing that grants the shamn the ability to 'see' through the spirit. If your spirit attacks something that you can't see, does it have total concealment, even when the spirit is adjacent to it? I think so, based upon the wording I've seen...

 

[Shroomy]

I'll be curious how the spirit's detailed attack rules work. You treat the spirit companion's square as the origin square for spirit attacks - but some of the rules don't focus on origen squares - they focus on you. For example, concealment rules focus on whether you can see a creature.

I see nothing that grants the shaman the ability to 'see' through the spirit. If your spirit attacks something that you can't see, does it have total concealment, even when the spirit is adjacent to it? I think so, based upon the wording I've seen...

Unless otherwise noted, line of sight would be determined from your position to the target, as would line of effect.

 

[Wayside]

No one even mentioned "the internal math" - the OP was complaining about a perceived exploit of the rules - so DEFCON wasn't even addressing anything here... just popping off.

We now have a class with a damage resistant (10+half/level) pet which only does minimal damage to the shaman when it is killed

And even rules like line of sight and line of effect can be (and, one assumes, are) weighted mathematically during development for balance purposes.

 

[jgerman]

Isn't the whole point of these previews to generate debate and discussions? In the meantime, the designers can collect feedback, identify potential issues with said class' design and nip them in the bud before the supplement gets released.

In an ideal world yes, but that's not what's going happen here, or more accurately that's not what is happening here. These previews are for what's coming whether we like it or not. Player's Handbook II is at the printer already (or already printed) if the pattern of the other releases is still being followed. IIRC other books were sent off fully three months before release, there's only about half that time before PHB II.

That being said I'm not sure it's "broken" for a lot of the reasons mentioned here such as the requirement for line of effect. Additionally the "goblin village" scenario doesn't hold much water. Twenty squares is only 100 feet, if I were building a village I don't think I'd leave many hiding places within 100 feet of the village boundaries I can guarantee that no matter the hiding spot he'll be found by the dozens of gobbies fleeing the village if it happened in my game.

This isn't WoW despite anti-4E propaganda, there is a DM at the table... part of his job is to balance when things get out of hand. If that has to be done on the fly so be it.

 

[Jack99]

I think it is a pity that the OP hasn't been back and responded to this thread.

 

[Kitirat]

I always find it amusing that someone can read a preview and within 15 minutes claim "they've gone against their own internal math"! As though the reader somehow knows exactly how the math formulas actually work and can do them instantly in his head... whereas the design department and playtesters have somehow missed this fact in the nine to twelve months of design and development.

Please. Get over yourself. Stop thinking the developers are idiots and that you know better than they do. You don't.

Really?

Try this one: Battlerage Vigor

How did it get through? Because at times things do not get playtested enough, are changed at the last minute or are the pet projects of the designers (last one is rare). From my experience writing games and modules, things can and do slip through.

 

[Kitirat]

I think it is a pity that the OP hasn't been back and responded to this thread.

LOL, after the first day I forgot about it till the which classes do you dislike thread where I effectively reposted it. I thought this thread had been lost to the wind.

And Jack99 is correct, the original scenario I proposed would not work cause of the stay within 20 rule of conjurations.

I'll say I was impressed with Defcon and his rudeness coming back to this. I will say thiis, while I was wrong on this one (and I agreed with jgsugden that I will hate as a DM constantly checking ranges) I have actually gone through being a designer and having 40 people playtest for 6 months on content and guess what? Things still get through. In my post above I noted the battle rager vigor which literally can let a 1st level fighter take on 1 million melee minions. Sure it is not realistic and silly, but in game evidence has shown that it is a broken class by a LOT, not even close to reasonable unless to alter the game (as mearls has discussed doing to an extent) and completely get rid of minions. Sure if you do that and playtest it, it is only signifigantly stronger than the other fighters instead of broken, but it is an excellent example that the designers are infalable and discussion on the classes is always a good thing, but flaming, is not IMO.