Forked Thread: [Ryan Dancey's D&D Death Spiral] - D&D doomed to cult status?

Ariosto

First Post
No character generation means a "crippled" Basic D&D, and third level is not what it used to be. Considering the demands of the 4E system, I'm sure we're not talking anything remotely on par with Holmes (or even Moldvay) Basic plus Keep on the Borderlands!

The hardbound trilogy is around the same price point (adjusted for inflation) as the (more slender, but more densely packed with monsters and magic) 1st ed. AD&D trilogy, so figure a basic set should be between 1/3 and 1/2 the cost. How appealing it is to a wide demographic makes a difference.

WotC's product is heavy in more than just poundage. It's time-consuming and number-crunching and loaded with geek-pleasing flavor that might not go down so well with people a bit more ... normal. It's sort of turned into the RPG equivalent of Advanced Squad Leader (which may be neater than the old game plus supplements, but is still a LOT more for the hard core than the original best-selling game without "improvements").

But of course that's not the whole of D&D, much less of the RPG industry.
 

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Maggan

Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
Actually, if you must know, H1 has a complete copy of basic D&D rules, characters to play with those rules, and gives you everything you need to play up to 3rd level, and a complete adventure to get you there.

That is, if nothing else, exactly what a gateway product should do.

Yeah. There have been plenty of gateway products over the year. It always seem to me that they are being overlooked because they aren't exactly like the Holmes basic set.

Some have offered character generation rules (the basic D&D sets for 3rd edition), some have had minis, some are "For Dummies"-books, and so on so forth.

So there are gateway products, some of them have hewed close to the hypothetical holy grail (character generation, some levels, pre-fab adventures, boxed sets, minis included) and still they don't set the market on fire.

I think this blog post explains why:

Jeff's Gameblog: a blog about games and stuff: Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads! (a rant)

/M
 

Ariosto

First Post
The "fad factor" is certainly something to take into account, but not I think to the exclusion of others. The Lord of the Rings was also a "fad" in the early 1970s, but I don't think it's "doomed to cult status".

The "cult status" itself could be what's doomed!
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
"Doomed" is a funny concept to apply to cult status.

What's wrong with cult status? You might not be growing huge, but you will be growing and building over time, and you can make a tidy profit off of the sub-set of the population that buys into you.

Cult status is fine. There's the whole "1,000 true fans" idea that any idea is viable if 1,000 people are willing to support it. D&D definitely has that. It won't disappear.

If you want to emerge from cult status, you need to become light, simple, and easy. For starters, you need to not have the game require five people in a room for four hours on a semi-weekly basis and not have to read 300+ pages to run a game.

If you can get rid of those needs, you're approaching what you need to do for mainstream success, but that would be a pretty dramatic move for D&D, one that might turn the game into something D&D-ish on the surface, but with a very different underpinning.

Nah, D&D as we know it and play it will be niche.

That really doesn't mean it's "doomed" to anything, though.
 

JohnRTroy

Adventurer
What happened to the Wargaming Hobby could be seen as a warning sign to the Tabletop RPG industry.

I think these two articles, one written over 10 years ago, the other written very recently, should serve as a cautionary warning.

SPI Died for Your Sins

The State of Wargaming » Armchair General\

What's wrong with cult status? You might not be growing huge, but you will be growing and building over time, and you can make a tidy profit off of the sub-set of the population that buys into you.

It can get so weak it's hard to even find a community. Imagine if GenCon goes under? If Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms stopped official publication? Over time, no new people come into the hobby. Imagine if it got so bad it would be hard to find people to play face to face. Those wargame articles can serve as a warning. At one time there was enough support for Wargaming only conventions.

While the second article is a little more positive, take a good look at the SPI one. All it took was SPI to go under to really quickly and it hurt the entire marketplace. The same could happen if D&D went under.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Some of us STILL are. I've bounced around dozens of game groups over the years, and EVERY single one of them had a majority of people my age, and I'm 40. There was the occasional 20 something who came into the game with 3e or 3.5, but for the most part it's been us old fogies that have been around since the beginning or damn near it. We haven't dropped the hobby, far from it, we keep it alive.

D&D is not dying, I doubt it ever will, no matter how WOTC bastardizes it, but it's far, far from as popular as it was in the day.

This is the problem with gaming anecdotes. Of my current group of 7, 2 are under 20, 3 are in their 20's and two are in their 30's. That span of age has been consistent for me for several years now, both in online games and face to face.

Let's take another statistic, FWIW. When Dragon did their last reader survey (at least that they released information for), the Dragon readership was still averaging in their early 20's. IIRC, the difference was maybe a year or two in respondant average ages. 23, 24? I'm sure someone out there has that issue as well.

If the age of gamers was shifting radically, considering the Dragon surveys were several years apart, shouldn't the average age also have drifted upwards considerably?

Ariosto said:
The "fad factor" is certainly something to take into account, but not I think to the exclusion of others. The Lord of the Rings was also a "fad" in the early 1970s, but I don't think it's "doomed to cult status".

Well, until Peter Jackson came along, I would say you were wrong. No one outside of the fantasy genre bothered to read LOTR, other than if they were forced to at Uni - nothing like having an Oxford Professor get his book onto Uni reading lists - and in the 1970's, the fantasy genre was a tiny subgenre of SF. It's not until the 80's that fantasy as a genre takes off.

So, yeah, until the movie came out, I would definitely say that LOTR, was a cult status read.
 

Roleplaying games generally have never really been as mainstream as other entertainment forms and hobbies. There have been spikes and dips in popularity and mainstream awareness over the years but nothing that comes close to making it as popular as moviegoing, or sports for example.

Regardless of the ruleset, simplicity, or complexity of any given game the very nature of a roleplaying game does not have the level of mass appeal that other entertainment forms do. Roleplaying games require creativity, imagination, and active participation by those involved. This is too much effort to be considered entertainment for some people. These days, roleplaying games are played by a broader spectrum of people than ever before. The "geeks only" thing is largely gone. This doesn't mean that roleplaying games have gone mainstream.

Science fiction and fantasy in general have become more mainstream which is why I think we see more diversity in the gaming community. Fantasy in popular culture can draw more people into gaming but those that stay gamers and move beyond whatever brought them to gaming are the types of people who might have been gaming already had they been introduced earlier. Not every sci-fi/fantasy fan is a gamer. Some might become gamers once they try it and others won't have the desire for that particular form of entertainment.

I don't see videogames drawing people who really like tabletop gaming out of the hobby. Modern MMO's do allow you to socialize with friends while playing (" I AM socializing you R-tard. I'm logged on to an MMORPG getting XP with my friends, using teamspeak":)). This is a fun experience but to me does not in any way replace the kind of enjoyment I get from a real PnP/FTF roleplaying game.

In the videogame environment there is no shared creation. You can cooperate as a member of a team, interact with others in the virtual environment , and even chat about miscellaneous subject matter like you might do at the gaming table. What you can't do (at least currently) is create a meaningful shared adventure together that has any effect in the imaginary world.

I'm ok with roleplaying games not appealing to everyone. I would much rather have such games be a niche entertainment form for those that appreciate and enjoy them than be transformed into something cheap and devoid of substance in an attempt to market to the masses. The real elephant in the room is that rpgs do not have the same level of popularity as board and card games. Changing the nature of what roleplaying games are all about will not increase thier popularity. Those more attracted to shiny, visual presentation and instant gratification will prefer video games over rpgs as thier first choice in entertainment. Attempting to market rpgs as competion to video games will fail.
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
There are a couple of factors here:

(1) Everyone tends to associate with people close to their own age (for a myriad number of reasons). This is just as true for gamers as it is for anyone else. I recently had cause to be exposed to a crowd of much younger people and, unsurprisingly, I was suddenly exposed to a number of much younger gamers.

(2) You're playing a game that's been OOP for 20 years. That's some pretty heavy self-selection bias for playing with older gamers.

1: Sure, but I've recruited gamers from bulletin board postits, internet forums, usenet, sat in on games at a flgs, and answered ads for the same, and inevitably, better than 90% has been people aged 35 plus. By all means, go after the younger guys, but don't abandon those who've payed your bills for 35 years.

2: I don't play 1e exclusively. I currently play 1e and WFRP, we ran a Runequest game, played Torg, played 3e from its inception until a few months after 3.5 came out and we realized we didn't like most of the changes. I joined a 2nd edition game, an edition I was never fond of, and we ran a basic game one night after a tpk left us with a couple extra hours to kill. 4e, I tried and decided I'd rather shave with a buzz saw.
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
Well, until Peter Jackson came along, I would say you were wrong. No one outside of the fantasy genre bothered to read LOTR, other than if they were forced to at Uni - nothing like having an Oxford Professor get his book onto Uni reading lists - and in the 1970's, the fantasy genre was a tiny subgenre of SF. It's not until the 80's that fantasy as a genre takes off.

So, yeah, until the movie came out, I would definitely say that LOTR, was a cult status read.

Wow, no one remembers the 60s and 70s? "Frodo Lives" written in Graffiti in subway stations all over NY city, "Gandalf for President" doesn't ring a bell? LotR was more popular then that now. Led Zeppelin are arguably the most well-known group to be directly inspired by Tolkien, and have several songs that contain explicit references to The Lord of the Rings ("Ramble On," "The Battle of Evermore," "Over the Hills and Far Away," and "Misty Mountain Hop"). In 1975, Rush came out with "Rivendell." I don't see any of todays bands referencing Gollum.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
No character generation means a "crippled" Basic D&D, and third level is not what it used to be. Considering the demands of the 4E system, I'm sure we're not talking anything remotely on par with Holmes (or even Moldvay) Basic plus Keep on the Borderlands!

The hardbound trilogy is around the same price point (adjusted for inflation) as the (more slender, but more densely packed with monsters and magic) 1st ed. AD&D trilogy, so figure a basic set should be between 1/3 and 1/2 the cost. How appealing it is to a wide demographic makes a difference.

WotC's product is heavy in more than just poundage. It's time-consuming and number-crunching and loaded with geek-pleasing flavor that might not go down so well with people a bit more ... normal. It's sort of turned into the RPG equivalent of Advanced Squad Leader (which may be neater than the old game plus supplements, but is still a LOT more for the hard core than the original best-selling game without "improvements").

But of course that's not the whole of D&D, much less of the RPG industry.

I agree with this post 100%. I think RPGs in general are doing ok, but DnD (which is the 'gateway' drug for RPGs) is flagging badly, and I think that is because it is "time-consuming and number-crunching and loaded with geek-pleasing flavor that might not go down so well with people a bit more ... normal" as you so aptly put it.

What seems simple and comfortably familiar to DnD players is very complex and alien to most people. What made the game popular in the early days was that it was

1) easy to get into (esp. Basic Set)
2) relatively generic in terms of style*
3) not already closely associated with "Geek culture"

It's points 2 and 3 which are most problematic for DnD right now. I like to bring people into my games who aren't hard core gamers. I find that the idea of DnD is very suspect to people, and this is not without reason. Even though games like WoW have HUGE popularity and mainstream appeal, this doesn't translate to a high comfort level with DnD or other tabletop RPGs (mainly because of DnD). Yes the fantasy genre is more popular, and games like WoW are very mainstream, but the truth is most WoW players deride DnD players, and most people I know are really surprised when I tell them I play tabletop RPGs.

I believe DnD is currently designed to appeal to hard core gamers, and in so doing, captures a large potential audience of people who used to play and stick with it out of a very powerful type of Geek nostalgia, but it's rules force you to play in a manner, with assumptions and logic that are basically part of a certain very deep Geek culture, which pretty much everybody else (including myself) finds very off-putting.

*point 2 means you could play the old game a wide variety of ways. You could play relatively realistic or way out surrealistic fantasy, low or high magic, historical or literary genre etc. The current versoins of the game (3.5 and 4E) are much more tied into one style of playing, kind of an adolescent version of high fantasy. To make the game accessible to normal people again, WoTC or whoever the next owner of the brand is, will have to make something like the old Basic Set, simple, accessible, and something every group can kind of make their own game.


Maybe it's unfair, but I associate the current rules with a DnD fan base I kind of saw crystalized at our local FLGS, which I hadn't darkened the door of for nearly fifteen years. Around the time 3E came out, I started my own houseruled game loosely based on 3E with some friends, some of whom played WoW but none of whom were gamers. The game was going well, and some of my players wanted to know where to get some dice. So my girlfriend and another couple who were in my game went into the nearby store, only to be stared at in lust-stunned awe by the grossly obese, strange, semi-hostile crowd of gamers. It was such a creepy experience none of the girls would ever go in there again, and their enthusiasm for the game faded somewhat.

I think that hard core gamer crowd will adapt to whatever RPG is out there, but DnD should quit catering to them. Design the game not for 47 year old adolescents or actual teenagers, but something anybody relatively smart (including actual grown-ups) can play without having to already know the plot lines of 20 years of bad fantasy novels, comic books, and Star Trek episodes. You might lose some of the 47 year old adolescents, but you'll inject new life into the game. It's the failure to do this due to classic US Corporate short term thinking that has DnD in a Death Spiral.

The baggage of the cultural assumptions the current versions of the game are based on are too much for most people to pick up on. That is why other board games frankly do so much better among normal people - they don't require so much of a buy-in to hard core Geek culture. Until they change that mindset DnD is going to remain in a dwindling fringe.

G.
 
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