Forked Thread: What would you have done?

[Ravingdork]

Forked from: What would you have done?

You might remember my Battle of Oozes game that I spoke about in another thread.

Well, I had a similar battle where I was hosting as a GM. I pitted five 2nd-level characters against 8 Skeleon Warriors and 2 Wraiths. The encounter was originally set up for six characters (a hard encounter), but one of my players got called into work (now a "too hard" encounter).

Here's the Diagram Aid.

(Click links to download easy to read PDF character sheets.)
Dragonborn Fighter (Greatsword focus)
Eladrin Melee Ranger (dual-wields frost flails; not really present through most of the battle)
Elf Archer Ranger (took Careful Shot and uses it all the time)
Halfling Rogue (practically immune to Opportunity Attacks)
Human Cleric (worships the Raven Queen, super healing focus)
Human Wizard (Fire focus)

VS

8 Skeletons
2 Wraiths

The characters were exploring the haunted town of Dortimir searching for the Baron's daughter who had recently disapeared into the area. After spending some time chasing after a figment of a little girl (who may or may not have been the Justine they were looking for) they were lead to the collapsed well at the center of the town. From there, several skeletons popped out of the ground, a wraith flew out of the well, and another wraith flew out of House #2. Nearly the enture party was quickly surrounded (only the rangers escaped this fate).

It seems to me that whenever my friends get surrounded like this, they go completely brain-dead (see the ooze encounter for a good example of what I mean). They were in a bad position, trapped between two houses and nearly a dozen powerful enemies and the only thing they can think of to do is "Daily, Encounter, Encounter, At-Will."

I clearly told them THREE TIMES that there were doors on the South side of House #1 and the North side of house #2 adjacent to their respective PCs, and yet nobody bothered to escape through them until one PC was dead, another unconscious, and the remaining two shown were at less than 5 hit points BETWEEN them! Even then, only the halfling rogue bothered to take me up on my hints!

The others got chopped up into little wraith bits--or at least they would have if it weren't for the Bow Ranger (who had been taking pot shots the entire time), the delayed intelligence the halfling rogue who FINALLY ran through the house and circled around the enemy into a flanking position, and the timely intervention of the Melee Ranger (who I brought in, in the last two rounds to avoid a TPK).

Now, I know it was a bad encounter from the start due to the missing player, but I can't help but think my idiot players didn't make it any easier on themselves. They get so caught up on the powers listed on their sheets they don't even bother thinking of anything else! From the very beginning of the encounter I told them that there were doors and yet they didn't even attempt to open them until round EIGHT! They instead opted to stand around and get wailed on by a superior force outnumbering them. They said they were concentrating their attacks on a single creature in order to make an opening through the mob, but nobody could agree on which creature they should concentrate on (who's more dangerous the wraiths with their weakening touch, or the skeletons with their ability to mark you?).

In the end, the fighter was knocked out by the mob and when a wraith flew in to coup de gace him and make another wraith (which would surely doom everyone) the wizard nuked the fighter first, killing him instantly and reasuring the surviving party members that "there wasn't going to be a third wraith if she had anything to say about it."

The cleric got the brunt of it (even being pushed into the 50 ft. well and being harassed by a wraith as he tried to climb out again), but he was able to heal enough to survive. The two rangers hardly had a scatch on them having been outside the main fray nearly the entire time. The halfling rogue was beat up bad, but faired fairly well next to the rangers. The fighter, wizard, and cleric (who had been surrounded along with the rogue) got the worst of it.

Am I right? My players are idiots, right? There were multiple avenues of escape (even obvious ones such as the doors into the houses) and they were all ignored. An exciting running battle got turned into a slugfest which the PCs ahd little hope of winning.

 

[cmbarona]

Maybe. And this may not be the response you want, but I have to wonder why, especially if they were using their powers so swingily, the skeletons (I'm assuming minions) didn't get dealt with sooner. A fire wizard and a dragonborn should have taken them out in the first couple of rounds, leaving a lot more elbow room for the rogue to flank.

 

[Ravingdork]

Maybe. And this may not be the response you want, but I have to wonder why, especially if they were using their powers so swingily, the skeletons (I'm assuming minions) didn't get dealt with sooner. A fire wizard and a dragonborn should have taken them out in the first couple of rounds, leaving a lot more elbow room for the rogue to flank.

45 hit point skeletons are hardly minions. They did manage to Push one skeleton down the well (who was later destroyed when a heavily armored cleric landed atop of him).

 

[James McMurray]

I'd like to think that the answer to "what would I have done" is "lowered the encounter difficulty so that it wasn't an automatic death sentence unless the PCs jumped through my hoops.

 

[Ravingdork]

I'd like to think that the answer to "what would I have done" is "lowered the encounter difficulty so that it wasn't an automatic death sentence unless the PCs jumped through my hoops.

Making use of an obvious escape route is hardly "jumping through hoops."

EDIT: Also, though I didn't reduce the encounter I did give my players a choice. At the onset of the battle (and twice later on when it started to get "hard") I asked them if they wanted me to bring in the missing PC. They repeatedly said "no, we want the XP to be divided 5 ways, not 6." In the end, even with a TPK looming over their heads, they only agreed to the last minute intervention of the Ranger when I promised to split the XP 5 ways regardless (the saving ranger only got two attacks off anyways).

 

[OSD]

Maybe knock off a skeleton or 2. But I do have to say, your players don't take hints very well. Laying on thick doesn't seem to help. The party needs a strong leader (the PC, not player, remind them continuously if need be) if they ever hope to amount to any decent teamwork. It might not be the intelligence of your players, maybe they overestimate their own abilities. The bicker too much or become too overhelmed with everything. With this many skeletons, one might be tempted to line up the party's initiative (delayed actions) and just conga line bullrush the skeletons down the well.

 

[LostSoul]

I would have climbed the houses, opened a door and shifted in, or pushed a skeleton back so the rogue could slip out.

It looks like a hard encounter, but winnable.

 

[Ravingdork]

Maybe knock off a skeleton or 2. But I do have to say, your players don't take hints very well. Laying on thick doesn't seem to help. The party needs a strong leader (the PC, not player, remind them continuously if need be) if they ever hope to amount to any decent teamwork. It might not be the intelligence of your players, maybe they overestimate their own abilities. The bicker too much or become too overhelmed with everything. With this many skeletons, one might be tempted to line up the party's initiative (delayed actions) and just conga line bullrush the skeletons down the well.

I didn't bother reducing the encounter because I thought they would use the terrain (such as the well) to their advantage. ONE guy (I think the thunderwave wizard) tried it ONCE. He hit three guys towards the well, but only managed to knock one in. He didn't bother after that, instead tyring to create ill-timed openings.

I would have climbed the houses, opened a door and shifted in, or pushed a skeleton back so the rogue could slip out.

It looks like a hard encounter, but winnable.

The rogue (way late in the battle) opened the door he was adjacent to (minor action), shifted in (move action), and then closed the door behind him (minor action).

The battle could have been easily winnable if they had pushed a few more skeletons down the well and/or retreated through a doorway (then the party could deal with the two wraiths and only one skeleton at a time instead of the wraiths and all 8 skeletons. Hell, they all could have retreated into a house and clsoed the door behind them, leaving only the wraiths to deal with (since they can fly through walls).

Instead they made it much, much harder on themselves by adopting the v3.0 fighter philosphy (just stand there and pound away) and wasted TONS of resources which they will surely need later on. The damned wizard didn't even bother conjuring up her flaming sphere until she was almost dead!

And they still got two encounters after this!

 

[Mengu]

If I was a player in this scenario, first 3-4 rounds, I'd be trying to beat these undead using at-will and encounter powers. If things looked grim after that I'd switch to daily powers for a couple rounds. If things still look grim, I'd be looking for an escape route, but I would be hesitant to draw multiple attacks of opportunity, especially if I was badly injured. I would make the (incorrect) assumption that the DM wouldn't toss an impossible encounter at us and have us trapped between two fronts, expecting us to run away. Once companions start falling, depending on my character, I may not want to leave their corpses to the undead, and I may fight to my own death. Or if I'm playing a more liberal character, I might decide to run and live today to fight another day.

First rule of DM'ing, never plan on the players to do what you expect them to do. When using superior foes, you have to make this abundantly clear. This could be in the form of the party facing 3 ogres, and barely surviving, only to notice that those 3 were merely an advance scouting party, and 30 more ogres are following them. This will let them know it's a superior force. But again, don't expect them to run. They might decide to instead hide and watch, perhaps waiting to ambush a more isolated rear guard. Or they might decide to throw their weapons down and allow themselves to be captured. Never assume players will follow a certain course of action.

I would say your players are not idiots (or you could say, all players are idiots depending on your PoV).

However it is extremely strange to me that a conversation about bringing in an NPC to save the party takes place between the DM and the players, and even stranger that the players refuse such help on the grounds that they want a couple hundred more XP. Tales like this make me appreciate my current game groups even more than I already do.

 

[f.e.n]

After reading through the scenario, i would have to say that your players are idiots.

Well, maybe not idiots, but completely disjointed. If there's one thing my pc's have learned, it's that tactics rule 4e. Any situation can become life and death if you're not working as a cohesive unit. The Ranger using careful shot is confusing, as is the cleric NOT using turn undead. I see both of these actions as viable solutions to escape being surrounded.

The absence of the eladrin is unfortunate as that race is BUILT to escape being surrounded.

But i can't blame the pc's for fighting to the death. Most pc's will. It's in their nature to defeat anything that breathes. Even if the odds are against them. And don't be surprised if your party doesn't bite at the mention of terrain hints (such as the door business). I find my party likes to do things their own way, going against the grain on purpose. It makes their victory sweeter knowing that they did it the way they wanted to, instead of as intended by the dm/adventure campaign.

Two things to the dm. 1) I like that you didn't change the encounter level. Good on you. 2) I don't like that you offered to bring in the missing character. This has a cheese factor on many levels. Shame on you.