D&D 5E Gamehole Con Live Tweeting Perkins Panel

[Mercurius]

I'm curious... how many other people in this drow discussion are black/african-american? I'm asking because I'd be curious in hearing another african-american/black take on the drow. I honestly find it a little hard to discuss things like this with people of other races when their stance tends to boil down to... get over it, or it shouldn't matter. Just being honest...

I'm not black, but I would like to address this. I totally agree with where you are coming from, and it isn't a matter of political correctness, as some would have it, but plain and simply sensitivity to others, and that too-rare capacity to understand the view and experience of another.

In this case, it is rather absurd for a non-black person to essentially say "It doesn't bother me, so get over it." I'm not saying anyone in this thread is actually, or overtly, taking such a stance, but there are tones of it. I think the important thing is to have the conversation, to talk about and share different perspectives in a spirit of open-mindedness and sensitivity, and simply because we're all ignorant about something and it is a good thing to become more aware of that which we don't experience.

As for my view on this, I don't think the idea of "cursed to have black skin" is inherently racist but certainly *is* quite problematic. I personally wouldn't be offended by a "cursed to have white skin" (or olive-ish, as I'm half Italian), but then again I haven't had to deal with a racial heritage in which people have been persecuted for having olive-white skin for centuries, nor did people of my ethnicity/race/culture have to use separate bathrooms just a few decades past. I think it is easy for non-black people (or, non-female, non-gay, etc, in different ways) to have no clue about the effect that sort of heritage has on one, or exactly why it is problematic for a young black kid encountering D&D for the first time to hear about the evil elves who were cursed to have black skin. But I don't have to tell you that!

So when it comes to drow, it isn't just being PC to question whether this is an, if not inherently racist idea, then at least a problematic one that requires some sensitivity. If I was Hollywood and/or WotC, I for one would not be interested in incorporating the "cursed to be black" idea into a major motion picture. But I also wouldn't shy away from drow-as-darkskinned, but simply come up with a different explanation, or change them altogether. For instance, in my campaign world there are two "evilish" (or at least not-nicey nice) elven sub-races. The drow equivalent are more pale grey skinned, while another--inspired by Elric--is almost albino. There is also a black-skinned sub-race, but they are very rare mystics that spend their time in high mountain towers contemplating the mysteries of the universe.

I didn't change any of this to be PC, or to be honest to be culturally sensitive, but because I thought it all sounded cool!

ya know, I keep coming back to this thread hoping for more info from the gamehole con, more info on what Chris Perkins said about the OGL and I find is a thread about drow not being PC and so on. Is that fair to the rest of us?

Well, online forums are created for and by the participants, so if there's conversation going on it means that participants are interested in said conversation. Maybe you aren't but clearly others are, and it is just as much their forum as it is yours.

In other words, you can't please everyone and, more so, you can't expect every conversation (in an online forum) to cater to your interests and needs.

 

[sgtscott658]

Well, online forums are created for and by the participants, so if there's conversation going on it means that participants are interested in said conversation. Maybe you aren't but clearly others are, and it is just as much their forum as it is yours.

In other words, you can't please everyone and, more so, you can't expect every conversation (in an online forum) to cater to your interests and needs.

But do you have to derail a thread that has nothing to do with the OGL or Gamehole con? I thought the mods here were pretty heavy handed about off topic posting and thread crapping. Basically you guys posting in this thread about drow being PC are being rude to those of us who would like to click on this thread to see info not page after page of Drow being PC or not.

 

[Morrus]

ya know, I keep coming back to this thread hoping for more info from the gamehole con, more info on what Chris Perkins said about the OGL and I find is a thread about drow not being PC and so on. Is that fair to the rest of us?

We don't dictate what people want to talk about. If a conversation drifts into areas you're not interested in, that's unfortunate, but that's just how conversation works. Conversation is an organic process.

 

[Umbran]

But do you have to derail a thread that has nothing to do with the OGL or Gamehole con? I thought the mods here were pretty heavy handed about off topic posting and thread crapping. Basically you guys posting in this thread about drow being PC are being rude to those of us who would like to click on this thread to see info not page after page of Drow being PC or not.

Gamehole has been over for several days - a major drop off in posts about it would be expected by now. Folks who were there and wanted to talk about it would have done so already.

And we are 200+ posts into the thread. Over that time and post scale, topic drift is bound to occur.

 

[Celtavian]

Ok, I never said they were... and let's not get "African" and "African-american" confused because there are differences.

I do not view it as such and never will. An American of African descent is just that. Hyphenating is nothing more than additional unnecessary social engineering. The nationality of person born in America is American. If their ancestors were from Africa, their genetic background is African, undetermined for most for obvious historical reasons. I do not, nor will I ever, practice the false addition of hyphenating American. I understand why it was done. But the reason for its existence is racist. It is divisive and implies something that is not true, and never should have been true: that certain people due to their ethnic background are somehow separate from other Americans. Never was a good idea, but I get the reasoning given there was very little choice other than to take control of a negative racial stereotype propagated by the majority. I won't participate in the fiction since I never participated in the previous negative racial fiction. As far as I'm concerned a person born in America is an American, no attachment necessary. They do not to my knowledge do this anywhere else in the world save America due to our history. I don't see people of African descent in England going "I"m African-British" or a German saying "I'm African-German." It's our own ridiculous history that has lead to this absurd notion of hyphenating what should be a united people. I hope we move past it. I've done so myself and do not intend to alter my viewpoint to appease anyone.

Cool, but were these in a corebook? I never played FR's so I wasn't exposed to these descriptions

No. They were in the Forgotten Realms supplements. Core books always use generic races. Modify as you wish.

I am not speaking about you peronally, just like you personally will not be the only person as an audience for this hypothetical movie... I'm actually trying to get you to step away from your personal experiences and biases and look at it from other perspectives...

If you notice in this thread, you are the only person concerned with the issue of race. What does that say about your personal bias? Do you see the problem with attempting to "step away" from my experiences? I think yours are coloring this issue far more than my own or even the vast majority of fantasy movie goers. The Drizz't books were huge sellers. It did not in anyway turn off book buyers that the drow were Dark Elves. I doubt they showed any of the same concerns you are showing now.

Were these in the core? I ask this because very few groups buy supplements beyond the core... I know drow were in the core books.

Anyone playing Forgotten Realms knew of them. They were in Forgotten Realms supplements. I believe Forgotten Realms was the biggest selling shared world WotC ever produced. The Forgotten Realms novels were their biggest selling novels. How could you not know about these things if you have been following D&D? Forgotten Realms was the D&D world for what must have been 10 to 15 years.

I feel like your personal bias is coloring this discussion. You want to racialize a topic that was never a problem before. Drizz't has been selling books for 20 years. Suddenly WotC can't make a Drizz't movie due to racial concerns? Where were all these concerns when Drizz't became the biggest selling WotC character in their history? A Drizz't movie wouldn't offend anyone but the most sensitive of people. All the tens of thousands or more readers of the novels would love to see a movie with their favorite dual wielding Drow Elf.

I'm going to step away from this odd discussion. I don't see it as productive. I wish you knew more of the history of the Forgotten Realms and Drizz't. You seem be making assumptions based on a lack of information concerning the world that Drizz't comes from, a world that has been the D&D default world for two decades that is far more diverse than you give it credit for.

 

[aramis erak]

[MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] isn't the only one concerned, just the only one speaking up.

I think it's been relatively quiet because the African-American community hasn't been a large-scale adopter of the RPG hobby. For that matter, locally, I don't see a lot of African-Americans playing games at all... And I see less disproportionate but similarly low numbers of Alaska Natives.

Drizzt is likely to be misinterpreted.

 

[Patrick McGill]

I will say that I share Imaro's opinions on the Drow issue. Especially when you understand where they've come from creatively.

I am a huge fan of Robert E. Howard, and Sword and Sorcery from that era. One unfortunate aspect of that era's pulp fantasy, however, was the use of race as a way to label things as not good. Howard did this a lot, with plenty of black skinned people being shown as being everything from near ape-like savages to vile sorcerers of necrotic aspect. I absolutely think the drow stem from this, because their culture and bronze-early iron age thematic feel are exactly like what came from those sorts of Sword and Sorcery stories. Perhaps not purposefully on Gygax's part, but the similarities are way too much to not even consider, especially since these are the very stories that he drew his inspiration for D&D from.

On the other hand, despite their origin (benign or not), the simple fact is the idea of a dark skinned race being evil through and through is problematic with me in general; even worse that such a race is a matriarchy!

Now the full disclosure: I love the idea of the Forgotten Realms drow, I love their culture and themes and how original they feel next to generic fantasy. I know women who love the drow for their female dominated society. My wish is that the drow be rewritten to be more realistic as a society. Controlled by an evil cult, but not evil because they're born, but slaves to Lolth under a heavy burden. The dynamics of a morally gray take on the drow question would make for far more interesting stories, dispel the awkwardness of skin colored morality, and provide more opportunities for players to play them as a race and not have to come up with some crazy reason why they're not totally evil through and through. Detailing out more of drow culture, especially those cults and temples that weren't dedicated to Lloth, would make them far more 3 dimensional.

 

[Boarstorm]

Now the full disclosure: I love the idea of the Forgotten Realms drow, I love their culture and themes and how original they feel next to generic fantasy. I know women who love the drow for their female dominated society. My wish is that the drow be rewritten to be more realistic as a society. Controlled by an evil cult, but not evil because they're born, but slaves to Lolth under a heavy burden. The dynamics of a morally gray take on the drow question would make for far more interesting stories, dispel the awkwardness of skin colored morality, and provide more opportunities for players to play them as a race and not have to come up with some crazy reason why they're not totally evil through and through. Detailing out more of drow culture, especially those cults and temples that weren't dedicated to Lloth, would make them far more 3 dimensional.

Seconded.

 

[Mouseferatu]

No. They were in the Forgotten Realms supplements. Core books always use generic races. Modify as you wish.

And this is exactly the problem. Why does the "generic elf" (or dwarf, or whatever) always have to be white?

Answer: It doesn't, and modern editions are realizing that. But it was the case for a good long while.

You want to racialize a topic that was never a problem before. Drizz't has been selling books for 20 years.

No, he wants you to acknowledge that it already is a racial issue for some people. Not the same thing. The fact that you don't see an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And lots of things have sold well that, in retrospect, contain troublesome attitudes. Howard. Lovecraft. Herbert. Comic books almost across the board. This doesn't make the books bad, or the authors evil. But it does mean that a society more accepting of diversity needs to at least acknowledge that some of these portrayals are bothersome to some people.

You seem be making assumptions based on a lack of information concerning the world that Drizz't comes from, a world that has been the D&D default world for two decades that is far more diverse than you give it credit for.

But the bulk of a movie audience won't be familiar with FR. Or the originating myths. Or anything else. All they would see is "The black race are the bad guys." Surely you can see how that could come across as problematic for some people?

 

[Keldryn]

My issue with drow is that living underground for thousands of years would make their skin pale, white or grey, not black.

On a world that operates under the same laws of biology, chemistry, and physics that Earth does, yes. On a world governed by magical and divine laws, not so much.

Drow have jet black skin and white hair because they are like a photographic negative of the high elves -- which in AD&D had fair skin, dark hair, and green eyes. They were banished underground to live in eternal darkness, so their appearance resembles darkness. They are an innately cruel and evil race; the lack of variation in skin, hair, and eye color reinforces this lack of variation in their morality. They are extreme in disposition, and they are extreme in appearance with the harsh contrast between pure black skin and pure white hair. They are not so much "cursed with black skin" as they are branded such that one will never be mistaken for a high elf by anyone. We also tend to depict spiders as being black in coloration, even though many (perhaps most, I'm not an expert on the topic) species are not.

Their appearance is thematically-appropriate on a number of levels. That being said, I get why some find the drow to be offensive or problematic. I am also not saying that nobody should have a problem with it.

And I agree that drawing from real-world mythologies will inevitably touch on many things that are offensive to modern values. At the same time, we need to watch out for projecting modern values onto the intentions of those who lived in the past, as the reality of their day-to-day lives would be utterly alien to most of us.

I don't know - I think that the Uruk-Hai are pretty identifiable as Maori.

Wait, you mean Maori hatch from pods as fully-grown adults? Hmm, I guess you do learn something every day. ;-)

Ha ha, yeah, it seems they haven't learned the fine art of public speaking. I mean, this is the sort of thing that people say all the time, but it isn't exactly political on his part, and unfortunately people take things that politicians say out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We'll see if that happens with this.

Also, the audience hasn't learned the fine art of not taking things literally. Or not taking things too seriously. Or, as you said, pausing to consider the overall context. Sometimes it seems that people are deliberately ignoring these lessons. It doesn't matter how carefully you monitor your speech, a small number of people are going to take it the wrong way and get upset about it.

I felt the same way about those early 4e promotional materials, where they were poking fun at previous editions of D&D. It never occurred to me to think of them as anything other than tongue-in-cheek acknowledgements of things that gamers have been complaining about for years. They came across to me as longtime gamers poking fun at their hobby. Clearly they were a huge miscalculation on WotC's part, but they didn't seem much different to me than the sort of thing that we used to see in the April issues of Dragon Magazine.