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Gamers vs Companies

unan oranis

First Post
Why are double standards so common in criticism of WOTC you ask?

Because a lot of posters are pushing edition war agendas... an argument that inherently contradicts itself.
 

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Badwe

First Post
If I were a game store, with limited space already from trying to actually show off all this product, and I had a choice between running a D&D game at a table vs. running a magic draft with a prize buy in, I’m essentially choosing between grossing 0 dollars and grossing the price of a box of magic in the same 4 hour period (assuming these two species of nerds consume beverages and snacks at the same rate.) The choice seems pretty clear when every hour I stay open has a cost, be it electricity, wages for myself or my employees, or even a fractional amount of rent or equipment wear and tear. The hope is that, much like starbucks and the free wireless they provide, proximity and environment will produce sales. The reality is that starbucks is in a much MUCH better position to close a deal.

Rather than continue to quip over frugality vs. greed (there are entire paradigms of business that are predicated on them being one in the same), I’ll mention one of my favorite pricing models for my FGS (no L because it’s a 40 minute drive away). They deal primarily in boardgames, but they’d be suckers not to do D&D and magic as well. Once a month they have a day in which you actually have to pay 10 dollars to hang around (scandalous, I know, but stay with me). In exchange they order food and make drinks available, and they always have boardgame demos available (even on nonpaying days.). For each game you try out, you fill out a little card and get a dollar in store credit. At the end of the day, you’ve played five games (which people are motivated to play due to the store credit), been fed, and only actually paid 5 bucks. As a young adult constantly being invited to pricey dining facilities by my peers, I can tell you being entertained and fed for an entire afternoon/evening for five bucks is a bargain, and I likely would have spent the other 5 on games anyway. It works out great for the store to because they get guaranteed sales and someone usually plays a game that turns out to be worth it.

For RPGs however, it’s much more difficult to create a thriving, active community that is also a value add for both the player and the distributer/facilitator. People being cheap just further complicates things. Worse still, D&D is the most reliant on getting a group of people into the same place. With magic, 4-6 people can spawn several games (or one big one) and people can keep piling on. D&D in large groups needs 6 just to start and has to be well above 12 before it can reasonably be a sustained event. Often times the FGS just has to hope, perhaps foolishly, that if these nerds spend enough time at their store some impulse purchases will emerge. When they don’t, suddenly you see much fewer programs being initiated.

For some reason it’s much easier for me to understand things from the retailer’s point of view than my own. I could get a ticket or a parking fine (hate working downtown) that could obliterate a budget for 3 or 4 books, what difference does the price differential on amazon matter? Perhaps I’m too young to understand the value of a dollar saved, I don’t have any pets, spouses, houses, or kids so I don’t find myself needing to be constantly aware of an individual purchase, just general trends.
 
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Treebore

First Post
In an ideal world I, as a business owner, provide my customers with the best serve and quality I can at the best price I can. When I fail to do that I expect to lose customers, because it is the customers job to look for the best product, at the best price, to make their hard earned money work for them as much as possible.

That is my basic premise as a business owner, and that is my basic premise as a customer.

Like my current business I am starting up, I could charge more than $5/pound, I could charge as much as maybe $8/lbs. I won't though. My business model numbers predict I'll clear 100 to 135 thousand per year at my current price, and that more than amply rewards me for my efforts. In fact I can probably soak up several years of price increases on my operating costs side before I'll feel impacted enough to raise my prices.

Corporations have a different motivation. They answer to share holders, and all they care about is returns. So as a corporation I would be very strongly encouraged, if not forced, to charge $8/pound rather than $5/pound, not because I need to, but because my investors demand I maximize their returns on their investment. They don't care about "fair pricing", they only care about fleecing the consumers for every penny they can.

To be fair, many small business' have the same philosophy as share holders. I have known people who shut down their business not because they were losing money, not because they weren't making enough money, but because they weren't making as much money as they thought they should. So they shut down a business that was still clearing $60,000/year for him, because he wasn't making the $90,000+ per year he thought he should be making. So he let go of his 6 employees and closed down his business when his lease ran out. Then he got a normal job making about $35/year+ medical and dental.

Personally I thought he was insane, but thats how he thought being a business owner should work, so...


Now as a customer, I have every right to make my money work for me as much as possible. If I can't put it in the stock market, etc... then at the very least I can do is get the best product I can at the lowest price I can find. The internet has been a godsend for this.

I literally have all of my grocery stores, walmart, sears, target, Sams Wholesale, Costco, etc.... bookmarked. Every month when I prepare my shopping list, derived from my monthly menu, I use their websites to see who is selling what for the best price, and make up my shopping lists based on which stores have what at the best price. Doing this, just this month alone, saved me $238 versus going to just one store and buying everything in that one store. I also have several coupon sites bookmarked, and make heavy use of them, which contributed to my saving that $238 substantially. Not to mention the store coupons the stores themselves often provide.

This is just with food. I do this for everything. Tools, car battery, clothing, absolutely everything. My money goes hundreds of dollars further each and every month than someone who does not bother doing any of this, which is a shockingly large number of people. The last time I bought a used car I used the internet to search for deals within 200 miles of me. I had to drive 120 miles, but it saved me over $1200 on my new used car.

So when it comes to RPG books, why should I do things any differently? My habits save me over $5,000/year in comparison to people who don't do things the way I do. By buying my books at Amazon, eBay, etc... I am able to buy way more books than I could if I bought them all at a RPG store. Especially with eBay and similar factored in I am able to buy twice as much as I would at the LGS. So why in the world should I go to the LGS and buy my books there?

Now why is WOTC "evil", well I don't think they are. I think they are making big customer satisfaction mistakes, and as a previous successful business owner, and one who is starting up a new business right now, I am very fully aware of how angering your customers cuts your business throat.

Customers have every right, and every expectation, to be happy with what they buy, and being able to buy it in the first place. WOTC is being extremely foolish to do many of the things they have done, because it does hurt their bottom line. This PDF fiasco will probably hurt them more than anything else they have done. So not only are they being foolish in how they treat their customers, but their stock holders aren't going to be happy either. Sooner or later someone at WOTC is going to be held accountable, and they will be given their golden parachute and someone else will be given a chance to actually run the company in a profit growing manner.
 

S'mon

Legend
I have no problem with WoTC seeking to maximise long term profits. However in removing pdfs they are going about it in a way that inconveniences me (I had 2 TSR downloads in my rpgnow wishlist when it happened), so naturally I am annoyed with them.
 

S'mon

Legend
The idea of a 'double standard' here seems to imply some kind of Kantian Categorical Imperative to treat WotC's interests as if they were my own. When it comes to getting RPG stuff, I have one standard - getting the stuff I want at a price I find reasonable. A company who prevents that, in the way WotC has done, will earn my ire. This doesn't mean I have a 'right' to what I want - the whole idea of moral rights is nonsense on stilts, as Bentham correctly observed.
 

ShinHakkaider

Adventurer
Paizo isn't really an "acceptable target" or a prominent one like Hasbro-WotC, so I don't see the same direct tactics being used to try and herd people into 4th Edition. There are plenty of 4th Ed "Edition Warriors" out there flaming away, though typically in a derivative discussion role - attacking people who criticize 4th Ed rather than attacking alternate systems and publishers.

- Marty Lund

Think if you spend anytime on the WOTC forums, you'll find quite a few people attacking Paizo quite openly.
 

ShinHakkaider

Adventurer
Why are double standards so common in criticism of WOTC you ask?

Because a lot of posters are pushing edition war agendas... an argument that inherently contradicts itself.

There are quite a few people who are WOTC fans and play 4E who are also not happy with some of their moves.

Also I'm not a 4E fan, but I don't hate 4E. I think it's a solid system. But since I don't play it and I'm annoyed that WOTC pulled the PDF's from a prior edition that labels me as pushing an edition war agenda. I bring this up because that's also a fair amount of people who have a beef with WOTC as well.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
My not patroning a local game store is mostly due to the fact that, for the majority of my gaming life, I haven't had a "local" game store.

I first started playing in '94 when I was stationed in England (Mildenhall). I became addicted to the game very quickly.:eek: There was an awesome gamestore about 20-30 minutes away in Cambridge called Otherworlds. I'd make a pilgrimage out there at least once a month, sometimes more, and would probably spend around £150-£200 per visit. Of course, at that time, online sales weren't what they are now, and prices in the store were really good (of course though, TSR printing and distribution for Europe was itself just outside the city of Cambridge).

I wasn't involved with game events in the store though. I was a part of a truly awesome gaming group, and really didn't need a game store for that purpose, at that time.

But, in early '97 I was reassigned to Korea (Osan), and any access to a local game store pretty much disapeared. I was stationed there for four and a half years. The only time I had access to a game store was when I was fortunate enough to go TDY to Kadena (Okinawa, Japan) where they had a tiny little game store just outside the gate. This occured maybe only a half dozen times over the course of those four and a half years.

When I finally got stationed back in the states (2001) I was finally near a game store again. But, that store didn't have gaming events other than CCG events. About a year and a half after I moved there, the store moved closer to the local college and ditched there RPG's entirely. They went strictly Comics and CCG's.:(

It took almost two years before a new gaming store filled the void, and they did have gaming events, but by then I was married and really didn't have the time for them. I preferred to spend what gaming time I did have with our gaming group.

Now that I'm retired, and living in Palm Beach, I've got fairly easy access to gaming stores. But now the problem is that the majority of their gaming events are 4E. If the stores provided and advertised 3E/3.5E events, I'd participate. For me, even though I finally have the "L" of FLGS, I don't have the "F" of FLGS (not saying they are Un-Friendly, just not Friendly to my preferred edition).

Now, I think calling gamers "greedy" because they buy their books online just isn't fair. I'm sure there are some "rich" gamers out there, but I'd wager most aren't. If I have a choice, for example, of buying the 4E gift set for $65 online and over $80-$100 dollars in a store, I'd be absolutely stupid to not buy it online. That's not greed, that's just being smart.
 

mlund

First Post
Now, I think calling gamers "greedy" because they buy their books online just isn't fair. I'm sure there are some "rich" gamers out there, but I'd wager most aren't. If I have a choice, for example, of buying the 4E gift set for $65 online and over $80-$100 dollars in a store, I'd be absolutely stupid to not buy it online. That's not greed, that's just being smart.

Being rich is not a prerequisite to being greedy.

The logic that "I'd be absolutely stupid not to [insert value increasing behavior here]" applies to companies and customers alike.

You want the most value for the least money laid out.
Companies want the same thing on their end.
Both parties' motives are the same.

- Marty Lund
 

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