Gaming Generation Gap

[Reynard]

My fondness for myth and folklore tends to mix with anime and videogames to create a general fondness for over-the-top action involving swordplay and martial arts and an exaggerated Epic Tier where unspeakable evils and dark gods are the default foes, not impossible challenges.

I think this is one of the reasons why D&D looks the way it does today, and this is the true "generation gap" (with acknowledgement that a lot of people cross the gap, too.) Simply put, the influences are different -- different in style, tone and atmosphere. Even leaving literature out of it, just the film differences are amazing. Excalibur used to be one of the ultimate "gamer" movies. How many "new" gamers (i.e. those that came to D&D with 3E) have even seen it, let alone consider it an exemplary work? Back before we had Jackson's LotR trilogy, we had Ladyhawk and The Dark Crystal. Fantasy in film was not so much more "realistic" but it tended to be more "grounded" -- mostly because of the limits on special effects, I think, but also due to style. While not a fantasy per se, the Matrix redefined genre film from a stylistic and visual standpoint (due in no small part to anime influnces) and that informs the kind of "geek culture" that both feeds and feeds off D&D and related games.

Modern genre entertainment tends toward the super-heroic, regardless of the actual genre, and it tends toward badassitude as a major selling point for its heroes. There's less fear, trepidation, uncertainty and just plain retreat and/or failure in modern stories, regardless of medium, than there is in stories from just one or two decades ago. Blame John McCain or Hulk Hogan (yes, pro wrestling is genre entertainment) if you want, but the "action hero" is one who gets "bloodied" but never goes down, who always pulls out a badass move in the end and wins the day. Compare this to earlier, when even Conan was terrified of the undead or demons or magic.

I'm not that old, but my preferences lean toward "gritty" and "sword and sorcery", with a big old heaping helping of lovecraftian horror and the attitude that sometimes just getting out with all four limbs attached is a "victory". That, and I prefer it when one can assume "it works just like the real world" unless there's an explicit point at which it doesn't.

It should be no surprise that I prefer AD&D 1E above all other versions of the game, but am comfortable with any edition before 4th (though 3E only up till about 12th level). It's not just the anime inspired kung fu attitude -- I love Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon for example -- but the disconnect from "realism" and "simulation" that creates my generation gap.

 

[Glyfair]

Easy solution for what? The generation gap? If so, wouldn't an alternate solution be for all the people of the older generations to go play the videogames Final Fantasy 7, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Chrono Trigger? Of course, that would take a lot more time than reading a few short stories...

I am definitely older generation and have played all those video games. They aren't that high on my inspiration list.

What I find most interesting here, though, is how self-referential this may have become to D&D (and other fantasy RPGs, but most D&D). A large percentage of the influences that are supposedly "younger generation" were influenced directly or indirectly by D&D.

The video games above, all influenced by D&D. More recent fantasy video/computer games? Influenced either by D&D or games influenced by D&D. The OP, and several other posters, list their primary literary influences to be D&D novels. Anime, a lot of it was influenced by D&D, sometimes quite directly.

Twenty years from now many may consider some version of D&D to be a perfect representation of their fantasy inspirations because they all grew out of D&D.

 

[Fifth Element]

Back before we had Jackson's LotR trilogy, we had Ladyhawk and The Dark Crystal.

...

Blame John McCain or Hulk Hogan (yes, pro wrestling is genre entertainment) if you want, but the "action hero" is one who gets "bloodied" but never goes down, who always pulls out a badass move in the end and wins the day. Compare this to earlier, when even Conan was terrified of the undead or demons or magic.

Assuming you mean John McClane here - Die Hard was released in 1988. Ladyhawke in 1985, Dark Crystal 1982. Conan was 1982 and 1984. Hulkamania started when, about 1984? I daresay for many players who came to D&D in 3E, those are all from the very same era.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It should be no surprise that I prefer AD&D 1E above all other versions of the game, but am comfortable with any edition before 4th (though 3E only up till about 12th level). It's not just the anime inspired kung fu attitude -- I love Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon for example -- but the disconnect from "realism" and "simulation" that creates my generation gap.

I guess this is my generation gap...you talk about simulation and realism, yet prefer 1e. Seems like (never played, just read threads on it) 1e is incredibly unrealistic. People talk about going through PCs like a fashionista goes through clothes. "Tom died when he opened the door and all the water came rushing out and smashed him against the wall. Then Bill...aww man. He fumbled with his great axe and decapitated himself. It was amazing! Johhnny...he actually got through 3 rooms of the dungeon before walking into that invisible green slime." The high death rate and rotating roster of PCs is realistic? I know adventuring is dangerous, but...wow. It makes me wonder why these people didn't just line up to walk into a meat grinder and get it over with faster.

 

[Hairfoot]

Assuming you mean John McClane here

I pray to the gods of comedy that he didn't.

 

[Hussar]

I think this is one of the reasons why D&D looks the way it does today, and this is the true "generation gap" (with acknowledgement that a lot of people cross the gap, too.) Simply put, the influences are different -- different in style, tone and atmosphere. Even leaving literature out of it, just the film differences are amazing. Excalibur used to be one of the ultimate "gamer" movies. How many "new" gamers (i.e. those that came to D&D with 3E) have even seen it, let alone consider it an exemplary work? Back before we had Jackson's LotR trilogy, we had Ladyhawk and The Dark Crystal. Fantasy in film was not so much more "realistic" but it tended to be more "grounded" -- mostly because of the limits on special effects, I think, but also due to style. While not a fantasy per se, the Matrix redefined genre film from a stylistic and visual standpoint (due in no small part to anime influnces) and that informs the kind of "geek culture" that both feeds and feeds off D&D and related games.

Oh come on. The vast majority of fantasy pre-LOTR was flat out crap. For every Ladyhawke, you had DungeonMaster starring David Moll (Bull from Night Court). Even the so called "classics" like Highlander are absolutely horrid movies. Let's take France's worst actor, pair him with Scotland's best and we'll make the French guy the Highlander.

Sheena? Red Sonja? Rankin and Bass' Lord of the Rings? Gor? Yor? Beastmaster? The list of B fantasy movies is looooong. And while I watched probably every single one of them, they really were all crap.

Modern genre entertainment tends toward the super-heroic, regardless of the actual genre, and it tends toward badassitude as a major selling point for its heroes. There's less fear, trepidation, uncertainty and just plain retreat and/or failure in modern stories, regardless of medium, than there is in stories from just one or two decades ago. Blame John McCain or Hulk Hogan (yes, pro wrestling is genre entertainment) if you want, but the "action hero" is one who gets "bloodied" but never goes down, who always pulls out a badass move in the end and wins the day. Compare this to earlier, when even Conan was terrified of the undead or demons or magic.

Umm, what? When was Conan terrified? Ever. I've read the Howard novels and I've watch the movies. At what point is the super-heroic, last son of Atlantis, who is stronger, faster, smarter and more bad assed than everyone around him EVER terrified.

Conan was once beaten unconcious, nailed to a cross, left for dead for a day, the cross was then cut down and fell while he was on it, he pulled the nails out of his own hands and legs then rode a horse for an entire night (A Witch is Born). And you're going to say that the ultimate pulp barbarian is somehow less bad assed than heroes today?

Wow.

I'm not that old, but my preferences lean toward "gritty" and "sword and sorcery", with a big old heaping helping of lovecraftian horror and the attitude that sometimes just getting out with all four limbs attached is a "victory". That, and I prefer it when one can assume "it works just like the real world" unless there's an explicit point at which it doesn't.

It should be no surprise that I prefer AD&D 1E above all other versions of the game, but am comfortable with any edition before 4th (though 3E only up till about 12th level). It's not just the anime inspired kung fu attitude -- I love Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon for example -- but the disconnect from "realism" and "simulation" that creates my generation gap.

I think it's the very nostalgia colored glasses that you wear that disconnect you from "realism" and "simulationism".

 

[Hairfoot]

I think it's the very nostalgia colored glasses that you wear

What coloured?

 

[Shemeska]

I'm feeling like the middle-kid here. I don't feel any connection to the old school material of 1e, and not much to a majority of its fantasy literature influences (never read Moorcock, Leiber, or any of Howard's Conan work). Yet at the same time I'm just barely removed from the 25 and under range and some of the influences often mentioned there.

I read Tolkein in highschool, but prior to that I'd devoured Lloyd Alexander's work in middle school in the space of a week. I read Lovecraft's 'The Colour Out of Space' when I was 9 (which might explain some things), and then rediscovered his work during highschool (didn't know his name when I read that story and had horrible horrible nightmares for weeks of crumbling things in the attic). I've come to seriously adore HPL, and even more so, the work of Clark Ashton Smith, M.R. James, Arthur Machen, and a few others that Lovecraft himself was more enamoured with. There's a very strong strain of horror and weird fiction in my literary likes and influences.

Like a few others have mentioned here, I read Enders Game as a highschool sophomore and thought it was an incredible book (and he spoke at my highschool one year removed from when I graduated and got some assistant under secretary of transport or something).

More recently I've been reading China Mieville (just finished The City & The City; and just today noticed that he's going to be working on a Paizo supplement...), F. Paul Wilson, Steven King, and Jack McDevitt. A whole hell of a lot of horror and strange mixed into my fantasy. Very little conventional tolkein'ish fantasy except for the occasional D&D novel (which outside of two specific authors I've stopped reading).

As far as video game influences: everything from classic NES Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior, then the Breath of Fire games, and yes Disgaea. I <3 that last one.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Even the so called "classics" like Highlander are absolutely horrid movies. Let's take France's worst actor, pair him with Scotland's best and we'll make the French guy the Highlander.

...I like him... Never saw Highlander, but he was an awesome Raiden and Beowulf.... *whimper*

Come on...he's still better than Jean-Claude at least. We can agree on that, right?

 

[small pumpkin man]

I'm 26. I started playing around '01/'02 and I've never played 2e or earlier. I'm pretty sure I've read every author Gygax recommends in that dungeon article of his where he recommends books. The guys in my group who've been playing since they picked up Basic in '83/'84 haven't. (One guy's close, but he's never read Vance. I don't blame him.) So Nah, The generation gap doesn't follow those lines in our group.

The Prydain Chronicles were fun, but I couldn't really recommend them to anyone who wasn't either 15 or a had a good grasp on their inner child though.