Gay Rights

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Dannyalcatraz

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It's a little bit more than that.

The pope's line about who is he to judge someone who is gay, has goodwill, and seeks the Lord, leaves out any reference to having to stay celibate or closeted. The pope is basically overturning the archaic article of faith that gays are going to hell for being gay. The church certainly won't adopt that philosophy immediately, and there's no guarantee they ever will, but that statement by the head of the Catholic church is very significant.

While his statement "who am I to judge" was a profound change, Neonchameleon is basically correct: it does not alter the Church's current (as of the past several decades) theological position one bit. Homosexuality isn't a sin, but the practice of it is still considered to be so. "Seeking The Lord", thus, almost perforce implies celibacy- confess thy sins, then go forth and sin no more.

What Francis is trying to do, though, is alter the way the clergy preach about homosexuality to the flock and would-be members. Instead of being condemnatory and confrontational from the pulpit- an approach he realizes results in serious injury to both gays and straights alike*- he is trying to get his priests to preach a message of inclusion. That means that the straights aren't supposed to be out there making life difficult for their gay brethren, and gays are welcome as long as they toe the line.





* cruelty in the name of opposing homosexuality is a grave sin, and is therefore every bit as corrosive to the spiritual well being of the tormentor as it is harmful to the physical and mental well-being of the tormented. Preaching hatred leads the flock into temptation to commit all kinds of deadly sins.
 
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While his statement "who am I to judge" was a profound change, Neonchameleon is basically correct: it does not alter the Church's current (as of the past several decades) theological position one bit. Homosexuality isn't a sin, but the practice of it is still considered to be so. "Seeking The Lord", thus, almost perforce implies celibacy- confess thy sins, then go forth and sin no more.

What Francis is trying to do, though, is alter the way the clergy preach about homosexuality to the flock and would-be members. Instead of being condemnatory and confrontational from the pulpit- an approach he realizes results in serious injury to both gays and straights alike*- he is trying to get his priests to preach a message of inclusion. That means that the straights aren't supposed to be out there making life difficult for their gay brethren, and gays are welcome as long as they toe the line.





* cruelty in the name of opposing homosexuality is a grave sin, and is therefore every bit as corrosive to the spiritual well being of the tormentor as it is harmful to the physical and mental well-being of the tormented. Preaching hatred leads the flock into temptation to commit all kinds of deadly sins.

All this is very true and exactly what I was saying.

There's also one further real problem that means the Roman Catholic Church can't alter its position much - they are quite possibly in the same corner they've painted themselves into regarding contraception. The position on homosexuality is almost certainly considered a position on faith and morals held universally by the Roman Catholic Church (it is part of the Catechism after all). And although Papal Infallibility is almost a myth (yes, there are a few infallible statements - but very few) Magisterial Infallibility in matters of Faith and Morals is a different category entirely.
 

Dannyalcatraz

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The "dilemma" boils down to this:

1) Science is increasingly coming down on the side of stating homosexuality is essentially hard wired.

2) St. Augustine teaches that faith and logic & reason come from the same divine source, so that there can be no conflict between them- if there is one, then the position held in faith is erroneous.

2) BUT... the Church condemns behavior, not immutable characteristics. Thus, while it is not sinful to have homosexual impulses, it IS a sin to act to fulfill them...as with any other impulse deemed sinful. Because it is condemning the behavior, there really isn't a strong need to rethink things a la Augustine. It is nearly immaterial to the Church whether homosexuality is an innate characteristic or not.

IOW, it isn't that they can't change their position, it is that there is no good theological reason driving them to do so.

Contrast that with contraception: the Church is condemning the technology itself, in all forms. But it is possible that facts could arise that would make the Church reconsider that teaching. indeed, some might argue that 7B+ (and rising) humans on Earth is a pretty strong counterpoint.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Contrast that with contraception: the Church is condemning the technology itself, in all forms. But it is possible that facts could arise that would make the Church reconsider that teaching. indeed, some might argue that 7B+ (and rising) humans on Earth is a pretty strong counterpoint.

Yeah, the church is really messed up on contraception. I recall reading once (in relation to the AIDS epidemic in Africa) that the church debated and eventually agreed that the use of contraception for the prevention of disease was okay if one spouse had AIDS.

They actually had to debate that?

-facepalm-

This is why I don't base my faith on the rules of religious organizations. The church is made up of and administered by people, and people are fallible, and some of them are (unfortunately) horrendously stupid to boot.
 

Contrast that with contraception: the Church is condemning the technology itself, in all forms. But it is possible that facts could arise that would make the Church reconsider that teaching. indeed, some might argue that 7B+ (and rising) humans on Earth is a pretty strong counterpoint.

Misconception.

The Church is condemning the approach on the grounds that sex is ordered to procreation (never mind that this supposed Natural Law argument completely ignores the clitoris).

They also had this argument out with the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control. And the winning argument was the minority report which claimed that the Roman Catholic Church couldn't be wrong because it had the assistance of the Holy Spirit and that to claim otherwise would be to claim it wasn't the One True Church.

I quote the final section of the minority report, the one that lead to the writing of Humanae Vitae below. Please pay particular attention ot the final paragraph.

If the Church should now admit that the teaching passed on is no longer of value, teaching which has been preached and stated with ever more insistent solemnity until recent years, it must be feared greatly that its authority in almost all moral and dogmatic matters will be seriously harmed. For there are few moral truths so constantly, solemnly and, as it has appeared, definitely stated as this one for which it is now so quickly proposed that it be changed to the contrary.

What is more, however, this change would inflict a grave blow on the teaching about the assistance of the Holy Spirit promised to the Church to lead the faithful on the right way toward their salvation. For, as a matter of fact, the teaching of Cast Connubii was solemnly proposed in opposition to the doctrine of the Lambeth Conference of 1930, by the Church “to whom God has entrusted the defense of the integrity and purity of morals…in token of her divine ambassadorship…and through Our mouth.” Is it nevertheless now to be admitted that the Church erred in this her work, and that the Holy Spirit rather assists the Anglican Church!

Some who fight for a change say that the teaching of the Church was not false for those times. Now, however, it must be changed because of changed historical conditions. But this seems to be something that one cannot propose, for the Anglican Church was teaching precisely that and for the very reasons which the Catholic Church solemnly denied, but which it would now admit. Certainly such a manner of speaking would be unintelligible to the people and would seem to be a specious pretext.

Other claims that the Church would be better off to admit her error, just as recently she has done in other circumstances. But this is no question of peripheral matters (as for example, the case of Galileo), or of an excess in the way a thing is done (the excommunication of Photius). This is a most significant question which profoundly enters into the practical lives of Christians in such a way that innumerable faithful would have been thrown by the magisterium into formal sin without material sin. But let there be consulted the serious words of Pius XI in his “Directive to priests who are confessors and who have the care of souls” (1930). Also let there be consulted the words of Pius XII in his “address to the cardinals and bishops on the occasion of the definition of the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary” (1950):

"This way (namely, of liberation from the law of God) can never be taken because it is hurtful and harmful even when it is a question of someone who wishes to bring help to men in difficult situations of conjugal life. Therefore it would be pernicious to the Church and to civil society, if those who had care of souls, in teaching and in their way of life, would knowingly remain silent when the laws of God are violated in marriage. These laws always flourish, whatsoever the case may be."

For the Church to have erred so gravely in its grave responsibility of leading souls would be tantamount to seriously suggesting that the assistance of the Holy Spirit was lacking to her.​

The Roman Catholic Church nailed its colours to the mast with Humanae Vitae when the world population was over 3.5 billion and rising (and at that point, unlike now, showing little sign of levelling off) and little has changed since.
 

Dannyalcatraz

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Misconception.

Interesting choice of words...:D

The Church is condemning the approach on the grounds that sex is ordered to procreation (never mind that this supposed Natural Law argument completely ignores the clitoris).

Nothing you quoted contradicts what I said, namely that they were against the technology itself- I didn't go into the reasons behind that position.

Be that as it may, the position stated is STILL far more within the realm of being changed after an Augustinian examination and revision than is the Church's position on homosexuality.
 

Nothing you quoted contradicts what I said, namely that they were against the technology itself- I didn't go into the reasons behind that position.

No. They are against the principle of the technology. There are currently a lot of forms of contraception from the condom to the IUD to the vasectomy. The only licit ones are variations of the Rhythm Method.

Be that as it may, the position stated is STILL far more within the realm of being changed after an Augustinian examination and revision than is the Church's position on homosexuality.

Twice nowt's still nowt.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
I don't think that the quote presented above refutes Danny's statement, but I did think that the Roman Catholic Church was against contraception in principle. I thought that the principle was based on the tie between sex and reproduction, and on the sanctity of reproduction.

Thx

TomB
 

Dannyalcatraz

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No. They are against the principle of the technology.

Dude, why do you keep posting as if we disagree on that?

Twice nowt's still nowt.

In my lifetime, the Church has moved from an absolute ban on chemical & mechanical contraception to making exceptions in the case of preventing the spread of disease. Now, that's not trivial.

This can happen because the teaching of the church CAN evolve. Taken from a source meant to be used by those converting to Catholicism:

Infallibility just means that certain teachings of the Catholic Church are guaranteed to be without error. That's not to say that they are the full and final word on the topic: later teachings may deepen and further clarify aspects of the original teaching.

In addition, the doctrine of papal infallibility arose in [MENTION=82555]the[/MENTION] mid-1800s, AND the position you quoted was indeed the minority opinion.

IOW, there's room for change. Not much, but definitely more than "nowt".
 


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