Gencon: Any non-Essentials content coming up?

Tony Vargas

Legend
What's the matter with a knight activating his defender aura when he puts on his armor in the morning?
Nothing. It's kinda cute, even. I guess the only hard mechanical effect of making the Defener Aura a minor-action power, instead of an on-when-conscious feature, is that a Knight who's dropped has to not just stand up after being revived, but also decide whether to go into a stance or re-activate his Defender's Aura as his minor action.
 

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I get the feeling I'm repeating myself....Its not simpler to have to spend an action to change your stance and another to make the attack vs. make an attack.
Since you like Power Strikes mechanics so much, why not make real at-wills that act the same way?
Oh, wait. They did, they just call them Bladespells now. Yet, another new mechanic that should have just been folded into the standard at-will.
Actually there have been multiple variants of power strike as powers hanging around for a while.
That is one way of reading it. Assuming it is turned on in that encounter, I certainly would do it this way. But turning it on out of combat and it staying on till the cows come home, the sun goes nova or there is a new encounter is just not how it works.

With most stances it does not matter, but some do.
Explain why there are certain stances that would be completely and utterly useless with your interpretation of the rules.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
Assume a seventh level fighter (i.e. just had the third stance and third encounter attack power) and no daily powers. Assume four possible targets.

Decision tree for e-class goes like this.
1: Which stance do you want? (3 options)
2: Who do you want to attack? (4 options)
3: Do you wish to Power Strike? (2 options)

Yes, there are 24 options there on the table. But at no point does the actual list the PC needs to face exceed four (except on the move action). All three can be done fast.

Decision tree for non-e class goes more like this.
1: Who do you wish to attack (4 options) and with what (5 options)? These multiply for twenty different options on the same decision point. Yes, 20 is less than 24. But that's 20 options to sort through at once. That's hideous.
I'm sorry, why couldn't you have presented that like this:

1: Who do you wish to attack (4 options)
2: with what (5 options)

20 possibilities, 5 options at one decision point?


Sorceror is a separate class from wizard. I'm expecting something along the lines of elemental stances and two attacks - single target and burst 1. Not a further build of Mage (which is utterly indistinguishable from an AEDU class for obvious reasons). I want to be able to hand out a blast mage to people who aren't mechanically gifted.
That'll be cool if it happens. There was a rumor that the Bladesinger was going to be a Swordmage (separate class from wizard), have stance-like powers and not get dailies. It turned out to be wrong, Bladesinger gets dailies to manage (they're just on par with encounters), encounter powers of a sort, and bladespells (which are functionally more like the Monk's Flurry of Blows than anything else).

I too would like to see an arcane class as simplistic as the martial classes - but I can't say I'm /expecting/ it. Rumors and off-the-cuff comments by designers don't tell enough of the story to count on. I'll evaluate it when I see it, until then, I can only judge the game as it is and the direction it's been heading.
 

I'm sorry, why couldn't you have presented that like this:

1: Who do you wish to attack (4 options)
2: with what (5 options)

20 possibilities, 5 options at one decision point?

Because the attack and with what is the same standard action. It's the same decision point. Whereas with stances it's taken at a different point and different action. You do not hit anyone with the minor action you use to change stances. And you do not hit anyone with Power Strike.
 

Psikus

Explorer
I guess the only hard mechanical effect of making the Defener Aura a minor-action power, instead of an on-when-conscious feature, is that a Knight who's dropped has to not just stand up after being revived, but also decide whether to go into a stance or re-activate his Defender's Aura as his minor action.

It won't come up very often unless we see a lot more classes with defender aura, but there is one mechanical upside of the current implementation: it can be turned off. This could be relevant in a party with multiple knights/cavaliers, so that players can divert a monster's attention towards one defender or the other by switching auras on and off.
 

Marshall

First Post
If and only if you mysteriously assign the same overhead to an option to change things that need not be taken, and a certainty of changing things. This simply isn't so. The default "not change" works.

Yes, choosing not to choose is a choice. And that choice includes ALL your available options which are more numerous and significantly more complex than a 4e class.

Congratulations. You have just demonstrated that every filing system known to man makes decisions more complicated than not having a filing system.

Uh, you do realize that its the 4e classes that actually have a filing system while the e-classes throw everything into one pot? 4e already had the AEDU silos that broke everything down into manageable bits.

Now you almost certainly see the right moves. You are a skilled player. It's simple for you. And for me. But in classic AEDU, the at will and the choice of target are made as part of the same action.

??? Why would you make that assumption?

Assume a seventh level fighter (i.e. just had the third stance and third encounter attack power) and no daily powers. Assume four possible targets.

Decision tree for e-class goes like this.
1: Which stance do you want? (3 options)
2: Who do you want to attack? (4 options)
3: Do you wish to Power Strike? (2 options)

Yes, there are 24 options there on the table. But at no point does the actual list the PC needs to face exceed four (except on the move action). All three can be done fast.

Decision tree for non-e class goes more like this.
1: Who do you wish to attack (4 options) and with what (5 options)? These multiply for twenty different options on the same decision point. Yes, 20 is less than 24. But that's 20 options to sort through at once. That's hideous.

Humbug,
All you are doing there is parsing the decision making process differently.
1. Choose a target(4 options)
2. Choose a power(5 options)

Before you mention breaking out a burst is one option, not four, you are right - but on the other hand a power like Hack and Hew that hits two targets gives six combinations of two targets on its own (and would be 12 if there was a difference between the attacks).

Sure, but now you are actually into the complex encounter powers that 'simple' players arent going to select.

Name the class with seven stances please. (Unless you've grabbed stances with utility powers). Even thieves only get tricks at levels 1, 1, 4, 7, and 17 for five. That sounds like pedantry until you remember the Seven Plus Or Minus Two rule above.

My mistake, I misremembered the number of Thiefs Tricks. Its only 2.5 times the number of at-wills that a Rogue has to play with.

Until you have the decision point thrown in.

You're not throwing in any decision point here. The e-class has to make the same decision, just with different and more complex choices.

Apparently in your world there is no difference between playing sub optimally and sticking your underpants on your head, your pencils up your nose and saying "wibble".

Not really, no. Both types of wibble-wonky are distracting, time-consuming and unproductive.

Yes. Unconsciousness ends stances and auras. Your point? If knights are attacked while unconscious they don't have stance or aura running. This is about the one time it drops by RAW without basic precautions. ANd honestly, marks and defender auras dropping with unconsciousness is good thing. Or are you talking about night attacks here and catching the PCs asleep when most warrirors, Fighter or Knight, will be crippled by having taken their armour off?

No, I'm saying the poor player who thinks he has a simple class is going to be out of his depth the first time he is reduced to 0hp and has to decide between standing and activating a stance or an aura or attacking or...

Sorceror is a separate class from wizard.

So is a Swordmage, didnt stop the new "Everything is a Wizard" design paradigm from taking over the Bladesinger.

I'm expecting something along the lines of elemental stances and two attacks - single target and burst 1. Not a further build of Mage (which is utterly indistinguishable from an AEDU class for obvious reasons). I want to be able to hand out a blast mage to people who aren't mechanically gifted.

Please, NO. The poor Sorc already has enough of his design space stolen by the Wizard and no real support outside a couple Dragon articles for the Chaos Mage. Making the Sorc an Abyssal Pact warlock is almost as bad an idea as an article on weapon powers for him.
 

M.L. Martin

Adventurer
Also,
It's nice of them to encourage submissions, but first and foremost it's WotC' own duty to provide minimal support for extant classes.

I'm beginning to wonder what 'minimal' support means. Sometimes it seems to mean "30 different builds, each with three unique power choices or feat choices at each decision point, all of them designed with bleeding-edge hyper-optimization in mind." ;)
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
Because the attack and with what is the same standard action. It's the same decision point.
That's rediculous. Just because it's the same action, doesn't mean it can't be taken in two steps. Who are you going to attack? Oh, the guy right in front of me. Or, I guess I'll move to flank that one. Separate decision from. 'OK, what're you going to attack him /with/?' Power X... no wait, Y.

Conversely, two different actions may be need to be considered together to make a meaningful decision. For instance, if you're a square a way from one enemy, and 8 squares away from one, you can move 1 and attack one of them, say, in Poised Assualt stance for the best chance to hit, or you can move, enter Berserker's Charge, and charge the other.
Each of those constitutes all three actions for the round, and, as you point out, the inexperienced player might well need to consider and discard the various 'bad' choices (drawing a dagger, entering Berserker Charge stance, throwing the dagger, for instance, or, slightly less obviously, charging in Poised Assualt stance).
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Yes, choosing not to choose is a choice. And that choice includes ALL your available options which are more numerous and significantly more complex than a 4e class.
True. However, forgetting to choose is pretty easy, and stances and power attacks are pretty forgiving of that. So if a player goes. "I hit da orc wit ma ax! 17!" He did so in whatever stance he last turned on, without even needing to remember that his character could change - or even /has/ - stances. Of course, he'll lose the benefits of the stance if no one reminds him he's in Battle Wrath...


All you are doing there is parsing the decision making process differently.
1. Choose a target(4 options)
2. Choose a power(5 options)
Transparent, wasn't it? I've seen some clever manipulation of data. That wasn't it.


So is a Swordmage, didnt stop the new "Everything is a Wizard" design paradigm from taking over the Bladesinger.
Too true. I think WotC has made a conscious decision to emphasis a smaller number of classes going forward. I don't see how that accomplishes anything, given the proliferation of subclasses, it just seems like that's what they're doing. The Necromancer could have been some twisted arcane leader (heck, even if it was still a Wizard), but, nope, school.



Please, NO. The poor Sorc already has enough of his design space stolen by the Wizard and no real support outside a couple Dragon articles for the Chaos Mage. Making the Sorc an Abyssal Pact warlock is almost as bad an idea as an article on weapon powers for him.
Sorcerer seems pretty bad-ass to me, and it did get the Cosmic and Storm builds, IIRC.

Via the Mage, the Wizard is leaving all the other arcane classes in the dust, though.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It won't come up very often unless we see a lot more classes with defender aura, but there is one mechanical upside of the current implementation: it can be turned off. This could be relevant in a party with multiple knights/cavaliers, so that players can divert a monster's attention towards one defender or the other by switching auras on and off.
Interesting. The way mark mechanics work, one mark supercedes another, and a character can choose not to mark. So it's always possible to manage who is marking what.

Defenders' Auras, OTOH, overlap, and the punishment for ignoring the mark doesn't aply to a creature already marked, or in another ally's Aura. So, if I'm following, a creature flanked by a Cavalier and a Knight sure shouldn't shift, but can attack either of them safely, or make an attack that includes either one of them, without either being able to respond. Is that right?

So, yeah, the ability to turn it off would be handy.
 

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