Globe of Invulnerability, lesser questions

[Abraxas]

First the Spell description

Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

(A shortened description follows)
An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the magical globe. Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast. The globe can be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell, but not by an area dispel magic. You can leave and return to the globe without penalty.

Note that spell effects are not disrupted unless their effects enter the globe, and even then they are merely suppressed, not dispelled. For example, creatures inside the globe would still see a mirror image created by a caster outside the globe. If that caster then entered the globe, the images would wink out, to reappear when the caster exited the globe. Likewise, a caster standing in the area of a light spell would still receive sufficient illumination for vision, even though that part of the light spell’s area that lies within the globe would not be luminous.

Now the questions

1) How does the given 10'radius area interract with casters that are huge size or larger? I am curious because a number of the writeups in WoTC products and 3rd party modules include this spell for NPC casters (typically dragons & classed giants) even though they are too large to fit inside of it.

2)How do others handle the lines - "Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast." and "You can leave and return to the globe without penalty."

Do these lines mean that
a) if a PC has Bull's Strength already cast on them, the BBEG casts GoI, and the PC then enters the GoI the Bull's Strength spell still operates?

b) If the BBEG has Shield and Mage Armor up, casts GoI, moves out of the GoI and then back into the GoI, are the Shield and Mage Armor spells suppressed?

 

[Plane Sailing]

2)How do others handle the lines - "Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast." and "You can leave and return to the globe without penalty."

All I can offer is that it appears that the 3.5 revisers didn't like the way that GoI and mGoI meant that the caster couldn't benefit from low level spells he might want to cast on himself like shield and see invisible, so they added these strange new additions to the text, that gives the GoI amazing predictive or detective powers.

Actually I'll say more.

When you cast the spell you get a 10' radius emanation from the place where you are standing, but it is immobile - so you can enter and leave it. (Would have better been described as range 0ft, area 10ft radius emanation or something, but there you go).

This could get around the huge caster problem, as you end up with a 10ft radius sphere centered somewhere in their 'space'. They can then retreat behind it and cast through it, etc.

2a) yes, the bulls strength still operates. Strangely if the BBEG had cast GoI before the PC got bulls strength it would apparently wink off because the GoI 'knows' the bulls strength was cast later. Probably something to do with quantum magic decay.

2b) no, because again quantum magic decay lets the GoI know that the spells were cast earlier and so can function OK.

Why they didn't either (a) leave the spell unchanged or (b) think a little more before they changed it, I don't know!

Cheers

 

[Abraxas]

This could get around the huge caster problem, as you end up with a 10ft radius sphere centered somewhere in their 'space'. They can then retreat behind it and cast through it, etc.

But can't others cast through it also?
The way I read it, it doesn't offer any protection unless you are within the 10' radius.

I have been wondering how unbalancing it would be to change these radius emanations to emanations X distance from the squares the creature occupies.

 

[entr0py]

1) How does the given 10'radius area interract with casters that are huge size or larger? I am curious because a number of the writeups in WoTC products and 3rd party modules include this spell for NPC casters (typically dragons & classed giants) even though they are too large to fit inside of it.

When you cast the spell you get a 10' radius emanation from the place where you are standing, but it is immobile - so you can enter and leave it. (Would have better been described as range 0ft, area 10ft radius emanation or something, but there you go).

This could get around the huge caster problem, as you end up with a 10ft radius sphere centered somewhere in their 'space'. They can then retreat behind it and cast through it, etc.

1) No where does RAW say or imply that just because the caster is bigger than medium size the areas of her spells should increase proportionately. Nor does it mandate that just because a caster has access to a spell, it must be useful to her. Perhaps a Huge size caster would cast such a "size limited" spell simply to protect her smaller allies.
The PHB says "10' radius emanation" -- that's what it means -- that's what it is.
Perhaps a caster of great size should have to invest in the "Widen Spell" metamagic feat instead of having it granted automatically. :\

Do these lines mean that
a) if a PC has Bull's Strength already cast on them, the BBEG casts GoI, and the PC then enters the GoI the Bull's Strength spell still operates?

b) If the BBEG has Shield and Mage Armor up, casts GoI, moves out of the GoI and then back into the GoI, are the Shield and Mage Armor spells suppressed?

2a) yes, the bulls strength still operates. Strangely if the BBEG had cast GoI before the PC got bulls strength it would apparently wink off because the GoI 'knows' the bulls strength was cast later. Probably something to do with quantum magic decay.

2b) no, because again quantum magic decay lets the GoI know that the spells were cast earlier and so can function OK.

2) I've always read "You can leave and return to the globe without penalty." As, "it does not prevent the caster from physically crossing the barrier" (like a wall of force or antimagic field does), nor does "leaving and returning" effect the duration or effectiveness of the spell.

I do NOT read that the GoI spell effect possesses some sort of cosmic intelligence or memory that "knows" which spells were cast before it and that it should "leave those spells alone."

It is simple and it makes sense to me that spells cast before the GoI remain in effect unless the caster leaves the area and returns. At which point, all his in-place, lower-level spells are subect to the suppression effect of the GoI. In other words, it is the act of crossing into the area of the field that invokes the suppression effect (similar to antimagic field.) Therefore, I believe Abraxas's "2b" is the correct answer.



put aside your need to be right and instead use Occam's razor.

 

[Abraxas]

1) No where does RAW say or imply that just because the caster is bigger than medium size the areas of her spells should increase proportionately. Nor does it mandate that just because a caster has access to a spell, it must be useful to her. Perhaps a Huge size caster would cast such a "size limited" spell simply to protect her smaller allies.
The PHB says "10' radius emanation" -- that's what it means -- that's what it is.
Perhaps a caster of great size should have to invest in the "Widen Spell" metamagic feat instead of having it granted automatically. :\

You are quite right that it doesn't say that the spell has to be useful - I just find it odd that it is included in so many write ups of casters who have almost no use for it - and find it doubly odd for those who cast as sorcerers and have a limits on spells known. Thats why I made the "I have been wondering how unbalancing it would be to change these radius emanations to emanations X distance from the squares the creature occupies." comment

2) I've always read "You can leave and return to the globe without penalty." As, "it does not prevent the caster from physically crossing the barrier" (like a wall of force or antimagic field does), nor does "leaving and returning" effect the duration or effectiveness of the spell.

If that was indeed what "You can leave and return to the globe without penalty." meant why was it not also present in the 3.0 version of the spell? (The description in 3.0 definitely works as you are interpreting the spell) Or better yet, just say you can leave and return. Perhaps it is because "with out penalty" means something other then being physically prevented from crossing (something the spell has never done).

I do NOT read that the GoI spell effect possesses some sort of cosmic intelligence or memory that "knows" which spells were cast before it and that it should "leave those spells alone."

It is simple and it makes sense to me that spells cast before the GoI remain in effect unless the caster leaves the area and returns. At which point, all his in-place, lower-level spells are subect to the suppression effect of the GoI. In other words, it is the act of crossing into the area of the field that invokes the suppression effect (similar to antimagic field.) Therefore, I believe Abraxas's "2b" is the correct answer.

Given that it is magic, and we already have spells that can determine friend from foe or react to ongoing conditions I don't find it difficult to reason that spells have some sort of "magic time stamp" that GoI reacts to.

2b is a question looking for a yes no answer, not an answer

put aside your need to be right and instead use Occam's razor.

No need here - just looking for other arguements that actually support your position other than its weird and I don't like it
You don't get to eat your cake and have it to - you don't get "a 10 ft emanation is a 10 foot emanation" but "spells cast before" doesn't mean "spells cast before"

To me, it doesn't get much simpler than "Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast."

And what are you doing on the boards anyways - anniversary over already?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The PHB says "10' radius emanation" -- that's what it means -- that's what it is.
Perhaps a caster of great size should have to invest in the "Widen Spell" metamagic feat instead of having it granted automatically. :\

Strictly as written, of course, Widen Spell is of little use with GoI. It increases the numeric measurement of the spell's Area by 100%, so the spell changes from being Range: 10 ft.; Area: 10 ft. emanation to Range: 10 ft.; Area: 20 ft. emanation... but any portion of the spell's Area that extends beyond its Range is wasted.

Widen Spell works well with spells like Fireball, where the radius of the Area is a lot smaller than the Range. With spells where the Area is the same as the Range, it's not very useful as written.

I do NOT read that the GoI spell effect possesses some sort of cosmic intelligence or memory that "knows" which spells were cast before it and that it should "leave those spells alone."

But it says that spells already in effect when the Globe is cast are not affected. It seems a simple enough thing to check: "Was this spell already in effect when the Globe was cast?" If the answer is yes, that spell is not affected. I'm not sure what other reading there is that fits that wording...?

-Hyp.

 

[entr0py]

If that was indeed what "You can leave and return to the globe without penalty." meant why was it not also present in the 3.0 version of the spell? ...

...You don't get to eat your cake and have it to - you don't get "a 10 ft emanation is a 10 foot emanation" but "spells cast before" doesn't mean "spells cast before"

To me, it doesn't get much simpler than "Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast."

And what are you doing on the boards anyways - anniversary over already?

Well put. I was indeed looking at the 3.0 version of the spell (minor globe of invulerability) which does say "can leave and return to the globe without penalty." but omits "nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast." It appears (once again) that i prefer the 3.0 version of the spell.

 

[entr0py]

Strictly as written, of course, Widen Spell is of little use with GoI. It increases the numeric measurement of the spell's Area by 100%, so the spell changes from being Range: 10 ft.; Area: 10 ft. emanation to Range: 10 ft.; Area: 20 ft. emanation... but any portion of the spell's Area that extends beyond its Range is wasted.

True. perhaps with the inclusion of "you" in the area text, the other sections should have been "Range: Personal" and "Target: You".

One might suspect WoTC really doesn't want Huge casters benefiting from these spells at all

 

[entr0py]

from the 3.0 FAQ on the subject... interesting that none of these basic questions have been asked before. There is next to nothing regarding GoI in the v3.5 FAQ.

The spells minor globe of invulnerability and globe of
invulnerability create a spherical emanati on with a 10-foot
radius. Does this assume an effect that fills in the whole of
the sphere, like a standard spell area, or is it a hollow
sphere that prevents spell effects from crossing into it? Is a
spellcaster within the globe affected by her own spells?
The effect fills the entire globe. No spell has any effect
inside the globe, even spells a character casts on herself. Unlike
an antimagic field, the globe does not block line of effect. A
character can cast spells from inside the globe to the outside, or
from outside the globe, through the globe, to another place
outside the globe—but never inside the globe. Note that the
globe only suppresses spells. If you’re in the globe and you cast
a spell on yourself, the spell’s duration starts running, but there
is no effect. If you later leave the globe, the spell takes effect.

-but again, the 3.0 version still sits better with me since it doesn't require any cosmic spell area memory or "quantum magic decay".